Sorcerer, spellbook, scribe scroll

[Herzog]

When a Wizard learns a spell from a (borrowed) spellbook, it doesn't disappear. Why should it disappear from the spellbook in this case?

No, I would suggest allowing the sorcerer to 'learn' the spell from the spellbook (which would cost a wizard 100 gp per spell level and one day of time) for the appropriate cost (NB: 100 gp/spell level), then spend another day(or more? don't remember the time requirements for scrolls) to scribe the scroll for the appropriate cost (NB: 25 gp/spell level + XP).
I would require the sorcerer to spend the appropriate spell slot for all days of this process, and would require him to go through the entire process (learning as well as scribing time and money) every time he wants to do this.

Now, if there was a wizard or other prepared spellcaster in the party, this would be cutting into their 'niche'. As it stands, there is no reason not to allow a party member some extra's as long as it means being able to use a resource that would otherwise go to waste.

 

[Ashtagon]

Further delay of spell progression as a sorcerer is almost never a good idea unless the benefits are very good.

Which they do not seem to be in this case.

Being ale to scribe any 1st level spell he ever finds, instead of just the 4 or so he "knows", seems like a very good benefit to me. YMMV.

 

[Dandu]

Being ale to scribe any 1st level spell he ever finds, instead of just the 4 or so he "knows", seems like a very good benefit to me. YMMV.

How is it a good benefit? What do you get for what you give up?

Perhaps you know more about first level arcane spells than me, but I see spells such as Haste, Fly, and yes, even Fireball more powerful than the additional first level spells that the Sorcerer would be able to obtain from multiclassing as a wizard - assuming he has enough Int to make it work in the first place.

Perhaps if you'd care to explain your reasoning in depth, with details, we could get somewhere.

 

[Ashtagon]

Yes, he loses one level of sorcerer casting. Sorcerer is still a tier 1 class, way ahead of anything except cleric and sorcerer, which means even with a one-level drop in his primary casting class, he is ahead of the curve.

In exchange, he gets not just a single 3rd level spell (which he'd get anyway come the following level-up), but as many 1st level spells as he cares to scribe.

To a large extent, the value does actually depend on how generous the DM is in allowing him to find or buy a variety of spells to take advantage of this feature. But in a typical high-magic campaign, 1st level scrolls are ten a penny. I'm willing to bet there are at least five different utility 1st level spells that a party would want often enough to appreciate being able to scribe at will.

To be fair, the OP did later note that it is a low-magic campaign, with no magic shops. This doesn't change the basic usefulness, although the player would be well-advised to ask about whether they will b e able to find enough scrolls to transcribe into his books to make taking a level of wizard for this purpose worthwhile.

 

[Dandu]

Yes, he loses one level of sorcerer casting. Sorcerer is still a tier 1 class, way ahead of anything except cleric and sorcerer, which means even with a one-level drop in his primary casting class, he is ahead of the curve.

Sorcerer is a tier 2 class. Perhaps you are getting Sorcerer confused with Wizard?

Also, "Sorcerer is a tier 1 class, way ahead of anything except cleric and sorcerer" is not a valid sentence. It implies that the sorcerer is ahead of itself, which is impossible.

In exchange, he gets not just a single 3rd level spell (which he'd get anyway come the following level-up),

Then you're not getting it at 6th level, which was the point of my point. You're giving up - ie, not getting - a 3rd level spell at level 6 for a bunch of lower level spells and the ability to make more of them. This is not a good trade power wise.

but as many 1st level spells as he cares to scribe.

Do you need those more than a third level spell? Please, let us examine the power levels involved here before throwing out such statements.

I'm willing to bet there are at least five different utility 1st level spells that a party would want often enough to appreciate being able to scribe at will.

And yet you can't name them despite being asked to. And as you previously stated, the sorcerer can have 4 of those anyways without multiclassing.

Being ale to scribe any 1st level spell he ever finds, instead of just the 4 or so he "knows", seems like a very good benefit to me. YMMV.

See there? You stated it.

Furthermore, there's only so many unique first level spells; many of them are rendered redundant or obsolete by higher level spells, which you get at a faster pace by not multiclassing into wizard.

Further furthermore, you can't scribe them at will anyways due to time, GP and XP costs.

And you still have to admit that you do not know what Int the sorcerer has; an Int of 10 or less would make multiclassing as a wizard as pointless as a broken pencil.

However, experience tells me that most people will not be convinced of anything by anything short of actual experience (and sometimes, not even that!) so let me suggest something more interesting than internet banter.

You build a Sorcerer5/Wizard1 and I'll make a Sorcerer 6. We'll get an impartial DM to run us through a low WBL dungeoncrawl either in a team by ourselves or as part of a full party and see performs better. It would provide some empirical evidence as to the utility of multiclassing into wizard for the 1st level spells, would it not?

 

[FoxWander]

When a Wizard learns a spell from a (borrowed) spellbook, it doesn't disappear. Why should it disappear from the spellbook in this case?

But in this case, the spell isn't being learned at all (something a sorcerer couldn't even do unless the sorcerer has an open "known spells" slot from leveling up), it's being scribed to a scroll. As for why it should disappear - Why does a spell copied into a spellbook from a scroll disappear from the scroll?

I figured, since we're trying to create a system for something which clearly isn't allowed by the rules it would be best to emulate the closest analogy to the desired effect. Since 'scroll to spellbook' the scroll goes blank, then 'spellbook to scroll' the spellbook goes blank. (Note that this wouldn't apply to character who could otherwise use the spellbook normally- they could just prepare the spell per the 'borrowed spellbook' rules and scribe a scroll normally.)

No, I would suggest allowing the sorcerer to 'learn' the spell from the spellbook (which would cost a wizard 100 gp per spell level and one day of time) for the appropriate cost (NB: 100 gp/spell level), then spend another day(or more? don't remember the time requirements for scrolls) to scribe the scroll for the appropriate cost (NB: 25 gp/spell level + XP).

The problem I would have with this method is that such 'learning' breaks the rules even more than my suggestion. And, even if it is explicitly restricted to scribing scrolls, it leads to a slippery slope of abuse that's a short step beyond scribing scrolls. A persuasive player could argue that his sorcerer could simply cast such a 'learned' spell. Even if it cost the 100gp/spell level you suggest, for 3+ level spells it's a bargain compared to the equivalent scroll. And it would use the sorcerer's caster level which makes it even better.

 

[Ashtagon]

@dandu

As I noted earlier, it's entirely a YMMV situation. There are plenty of situations which could be solved by a high-level spell, true, but most sensible sorcerers would prefer to reserve his spells known for spells he knows he will need ever day, rather than those obscure utility spells which, while useful in specific situations, aren't useful every day. As a random example (and yes, I know it's not useful to a wizard 1), knock is very useful when you have it, but useless in situations when it isn't needed. Many 1st level wizard spells fall into this situational usefulness, and it is these I would advise our hypothetical character to scribe. He could, of course, just load these spells into his sorcerer spells known, but then that gimps the character by making his primary class function only situationally useful, instead of useful in every encounter.

And honestly, I have no desire or interest in making a wizard 1/ sorcerer 5 to duke it out against your sorcerer 6 in some obstacle course. End of the day, it's a role-playing game, not a race to power level 9000 game.

Yes, there were a couple of proofreading errors in my last post which you picked up on. One thing I've picked up on from your posts is a certain confrontational style - one which I don't have much interest in dealing with.

Feel free to have the last word. I won't deal with it.

 

[Sigurd]

I wouldn't be overly worried about this but I think its a really bad deal for the sorcerer. There are much better things to burn feats on.

Considering you can't build a spellbook I wouldn't scribe. Buy. Yes its more expensive but its a good contact, a source of plot, and a reason to go to town. If your DM is on side maybe you could discuss a minimum number of scrolls that you might expect to be available.


Sigurd.

 

[Dandu]

@dandu

As I noted earlier, it's entirely a YMMV situation. There are plenty of situations which could be solved by a high-level spell, true, but most sensible sorcerers would prefer to reserve his spells known for spells he knows he will need ever day, rather than those obscure utility spells which, while useful in specific situations, aren't useful every day. As a random example (and yes, I know it's not useful to a wizard 1), knock is very useful when you have it, but useless in situations when it isn't needed. Many 1st level wizard spells fall into this situational usefulness, and it is these I would advise our hypothetical character to scribe.

What. Are. These. Wondrous. First. Level. Spells. I. Keep. Hearing. Of. ?.

And honestly, I have no desire or interest in making a wizard 1/ sorcerer 5 to duke it out against your sorcerer 6 in some obstacle course. End of the day, it's a role-playing game, not a race to power level 9000 game.

I said it was going to test the utility of having more first level spells. That's not really a "race to power level 9000" thing, it's a test of whether your statement of how having those spells makes for a better character is true or not.

If you're going to assert that your choice is a good idea mechanically, you do not get to cop out by saying "oh, power doesn't matter, it's a role playing game".

Yes, there were a couple of proofreading errors in my last post which you picked up on. One thing I've picked up on from your posts is a certain confrontational style - one which I don't have much interest in dealing with.

Perhaps it is partially due to the fact that you constantly make assertions without ever backing them up despite repeated requests to?

Feel free to have the last word. I won't deal with it.

Throwing a hissy fit is seldom the right way to handle a situation, and is completely ineffective as a sympathy ploy.

Incidentally, in the time it took you to formulate your complaints about me... you could have listed the first level spells I've been asking about for several posts now and proved that I am both rude and incorrect.

 

[irdeggman]

What. Are. These. Wondrous. First. Level. Spells. I. Keep. Hearing. Of. ?.
I said it was going to test the utility of having more first level spells. That's not really a "race to power level 9000" thing, it's a test of whether your statement of how having those spells makes for a better character is true or not.

I can give you a handful of 1st level spells (only from the PHB) that my sorcerer 4/warlock 3/eldritch theurge 1 didn't learn and would have been nice to have: (he knows - Charm Person, Magic Missile, Detect Undead, Distract Assailant (from Spell Compendium), Expeditious Retreat) - he also "bought an extra spell"). The bolded ones I would find particularly useful - and yes there are usually better higher level spells - but the sorcerer can know even fewer of those than he can 1st level ones.

He has gone with the Fey heritage feat chain so gets bonuses with enchantment spells and gets some pretty good spell-like abilities and his warlock invocations are mostly "utility" ones and not offensive.

1ST-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Hold Portal: Holds door shut.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Shield: Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles.
Conj
Grease: Makes 10-ft. square or one object slippery.
Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
Mount: Summons riding horse for 2 hours/level.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Div
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Identify: Determines properties of magic item.
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.
Evoc
Burning Hands: 1d4/level fire damage (max 5d4).
Floating Disk: Creates 3-ft.-diameter horizontal disk that holds 100 lb./level.
Shocking Grasp: Touch delivers 1d6/level electricity damage (max 5d6).
Illus
Disguise Self: Changes your appearance.
Silent Image: Creates minor illusion of your design.
Ventriloquism: Throws voice for 1 min./level.
Necro
Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Chill Touch: One touch/level deals 1d6 damage and possibly 1 Str damage.
Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str damage.
Trans
Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Erase: Mundane or magical writing vanishes.
Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly.
Reduce Person: Humanoid creature halves in size