Sore losers

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Yeah, some parents suck at life. The kids, though, really wanna know who won. It's not like they don't choose to compete on their own in other ways. Competition is natural. Neutering the consequences - especially when they're incredibly light - is what's unnatural.

Well, sometimes the consequences may be light. Getting beaten in a game isn't too bad. A 91-0 score is more like being humiliated. And that also has consequences that aren't light.
Whether this particular incident was a case of bullying, I can't say. I don't think it is. The coach of the team that won said he put in his third string players. So it doesn't appear that he was trying to run up the score. Then again, there is the possibility that he put in his third string and was saying things to the players on the field. There's no proof from the article that he did, but it's possible. In any case, I think this is more of a failure of the system. The NCAA doesn't seem to have a mercy rule. They should have. The article mentioned that the high school sports commission, or whatever the association is called, has a rule where the game would have been stopped if there was a 30 to 50 point difference. It was a failure of the losing team's coach for not stopping the game. He could have decided to take his team off the field and forfeited the game. And the losing team's school also failed because, at least according to the winning team's coach, they don't put the money into their football program.

There is plenty of blame to go around for this massacre of a game. There are a lot of things they can do to fix these problems without taking away score keeping, which was never even discussed in the article, so I'm a bit confused as to why that was being discussed. Also, it's understandable why a parent would be upset that this happened. No one likes to see their kids get beat. No one really wants to see their kids get humiliated this bad. And really, what are the kids going to learn from being beaten in a 91-0 game?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally, I think learning that you can give your best efforts and still lose badly is a valuable lesson. So is how to handle such a defeat with grace...something a certain father apparently didn't learn.

My guess is that the losing team really doesn't currently belong in the division they're playing in. In my junior year, my HS football team (a small private school) had the leading passer and 3 of the top 5 leading receivers- including #1 & 2- out of all schools in the county. Some of the guys from one of the public HS said they needed to play us.

...Nevermind that they had receivers who outweighed some of our starting linemen by 60lbs: we had only 5 guys on the team who weighed 220lbs, and only 2 of them were starters. We'd have been slaughtered.

That year, Muenster- a team in our division- had a RB who weighed @250lbs, and we had to figure out how to stop him. There were pictures of him wearing competitors like capes. (The answer: he got injured while playing us. No, not intentionally.)

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Personally, I think learning that you can give your best efforts and still lose badly is a valuable lesson. So is how to handle such a defeat with grace...something a certain father apparently didn't learn.

Yes, but at some point the kids stop learning that "valuable lesson" and start being humiliated. What lesson are they supposed to learn from losing 91-0 that they couldn't have learned losing 40-0? What if they winning team's coach hadn't pulled his first string player and the game ended with a score of 175-0? What lesson are the losing team players going to learn?

My guess is that the losing team really doesn't currently belong in the division they're playing in.

Probably not. The winning team's coach said that the other team's school didn't really fund their football program. Money does make a difference.

In my junior year, my HS football team (a small private school) had the leading passer and 3 of the top 5 leading receivers- including #1 & 2- out of all schools in the county. Some of the guys from one of the public HS said they needed to play us.

...Nevermind that they had receivers who outweighed some of our starting linemen by 60lbs: we had only 5 guys on the team who weighed 220lbs, and only 2 of them were starters. We'd have been slaughtered.

That year, Muenster- a team in our division- had a RB who weighed @250lbs, and we had to figure out how to stop him. There were pictures of him wearing competitors like capes.

That sounds like "kids" that got held back a few grades. My school used to have a decent football team. One of the guys that graduated a year after me ended up playing professional football and was on some team that won a Super Bowl. When he was playing, there were a few players on other teams that were huge. They weighed over 200 lbs easily. I know for a fact that one of them, this beast of a guy, was 21 years old. He had been held back a few grades along the way to high school. Dumb as a box of rocks, but he could play.

(The answer: he got injured while playing us. No, not intentionally.)

That's what I'd expect a lawyer to claim.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes, but at some point the kids stop learning that "valuable lesson" and start being humiliated. What lesson are they supposed to learn from losing 91-0 that they couldn't have learned losing 40-0? What if they winning team's coach hadn't pulled his first string player and the game ended with a score of 175-0? What lesson are the losing team players going to learn?

While I fully support "mercy rules" for youth sports, I don't think they serve teens and young adults as well. Because, as we well know, mercy rules in the world at large are few and far betweeen. And that lesson has to be learned, even if its humiliating.

Speaking for myself only, I know that after a few humiliating defeats, defeats in sporting events no longer humiliated me. And knowing what humiliation in sports felt like has helped me deal with the aftereffects of massive defeats in non-sporting aspects of life.

Probably not. The winning team's coach said that the other team's school didn't really fund their football program. Money does make a difference.

Most definitely. Hell's Bells, look at what's been happening in Grambling's football program the past 12 months.

That sounds like "kids" that got held back a few grades.

Nah, they were a small school just like we were. He was just a gorilla. Had he been living in our area, he'd have been playing at a school in a higher division. The only reason he didn't play line- he was bigger than many of his own linemen- was that he was fast and had good hands. At least, relatively speaking. 250lbs coming out of the backfield with speed on a flare pattern against LBs and DBs who are 25% smaller* than he was is a weapon you just have to use.

You see that sometimes. There is a school around here that has a 7'+ center on their varsity BB team, and is in his proper grade. Got to be on the news with Dirk Nowitzky last year.

This ain't him, but here's another one: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/172416/thon-maker

Wilt Chaimberlain- held back one grade- was 6' tall in 4th grade, and almost a foot taller when he got to 8th grade. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highs...erlain-already-giant-4th-grade-105500503.html

Consider Elijah Earnhart- 12 years old, 6'1", 297 pounds, barred from pee wee football for being too big...and too young to play in the next higher division.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/video/12yearold-judged-too-big-for-pee-wee-football/1789658176001









* or more- some of our DBs were only 145lbs soaking wet

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Double post

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

While I fully support "mercy rules" for youth sports, I don't think they serve teens and young adults as well. Because, as we well know, mercy rules in the world at large are few and far betweeen. And that lesson has to be learned, even if its humiliating.

Why must it be learned at all costs? What's the benefit of doing that? They can learn the same lesson by losing 40-0. Why would you want to humiliate kids to get them to learn a lesson? Especially in a sport? Seriously, there are far more appropriate times and setting where lessons about being defeated can be taught. There are far better methods to teach such lessons as well. There is no need to humiliate kids just because they may have to deal with it later on in life. They are still kids. If we're going to go by the belief that they should learn these humiliating lessons at all costs, we should be hiring teachers that will treat them like some employers treat their employees. Maybe the teacher can scold the kids in class and tell them how worthless they are. You can have the teacher fail the kid to simulate a manager giving the kid a failing job evaluation. Maybe the teacher can sexually harass some of the students so that they can learn about what they may encounter.

Speaking for myself only, I know that after a few humiliating defeats, defeats in sporting events no longer humiliated me. And knowing what humiliation in sports felt like has helped me deal with the aftereffects of massive defeats in non-sporting aspects of life.

And was that the only way you could have learned about dealing with failure?

Most definitely. Hell's Bells, look at what's been happening in Grambling's football program the past 12 months.

I have no idea who Grambling is.

Nah, they were a small school just like we were. He was just a gorilla. Had he been living in our area, he'd have been playing at a school in a higher division. The only reason he didn't play line- he was bigger than many of his own linemen- was that he was fast and had good hands. At least, relatively speaking. 250lbs coming out of the backfield with speed on a flare pattern against LBs and DBs who are 25% smaller* than he was is a weapon you just have to use.

I could imagine it would be a goo weapon to use. Unfortunately for the players on my high school, there were a few schools with very large players. A lot of them hd older students also. One school in particular had a football team that looked like they should all be college players. This was also a school located in the part of town where you wouldn't want to go for fear of being mugged or shot. Some of their players were weapons... some of their players carried weapons. I remember a few news stories about players getting arrested for being in fights and people getting shot and stabbed. That school was pretty bad. My school had fairly decent players without a criminal record. That is, until two years after I graduated. There were some schools in bad areas that were shut down for reconstruction projects. A lot of the kids got bused in. The school got a bit more dangerous, and the football team got a lot better. Then they finished the construction and the football team now sucks pretty bad.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why must it be learned at all costs? What's the benefit of doing that? They can learn the same lesson by losing 40-0.

Again, because there are few areas in life that actually have mercy rules. If you can't learn how to deal with crushing disappointment in the relatively safe, low-risk of loss arena of teen/college sports (or the like), how will you deal with it in life when the sakes are high? When there is $1M on the line? Or someone's life? No mercy rule will keep opposing counsel from destroying you in court. If you haven't learned that lesson, how will you handle the public humiliation? Retire and become a short-order cook? Sue her for being a better attorney than you are?

I get into similar discussions about self-segregation by people of my ethnicity. There aren't too many areas in American life where someone will never have to deal with white people. If you've self-segregated for the first 18 years of your life, how will you succeed in America? (Some of those people are my relatives, and they have serious issues with whites.)

I have no idea who Grambling is.

Grambling is a HBCU- historically black college/university- with a strong history of competion in football. Their annual Thanksgiving contest against Southern in the Superdome is as big there as Texas/OU weekend at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas.

And lately, they've been losing. A lot. According to allegations by the players- who forfeited their latest game in protest- their athletic funding has dropped to such low levels that uniforms are not being cleaned, equipment is not being maintained. Players aren't being fed on 600 mile bus trips to road games.

The facilities are so run-down that the weight room is moldy and mildewed. They assert that facility conditions have contributed to several staph infection outbreaks.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-refuses-to-play-game-due-to-state-of-program

That link shows some of the most deplorable conditions in any Div.1 team facility I've ever seen.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Again, because there are few areas in life that actually have mercy rules. If you can't learn how to deal with crushing disappointment in the relatively safe, low-risk of loss arena of teen/college sports (or the like), how will you deal with it in life when the sakes are high?

Actually, it isn't as safe as it appears. Lots of those players get injured. There have been reports of concussions being on the rise, especially in high school football.. Putting a bunch of kids against a team that is far better than them probably raises the chances of an injury. But in any case, again, there are far better methods that can be used to teach these lessons rather than humiliating people. There are far better setting than a football field to teach this type of lesson. It's just a game. It isn't that important. Most kids that play hs football are not going to continue with it. They aren't turning pro. most of them won't even go on to play college football. If you have to humiliate a kid in order to teach them to deal with losing, or if you need to be humiliated in order to learn that lesson, you're doing it wrong.

When there is $1M on the line? Or someone's life? No mercy rule will keep opposing counsel from destroying you in court. If you haven't learned that lesson, how will you handle the public humiliation? Retire and become a short-order cook? Sue her for being a better attorney than you are?

Or you can settle so you don't get completely killed in court. It happens quite often. Any lawyer that sees how bad they are losing and continues to fight even thogh they know they have no chance of winning, shouldn't be a lawyer. They are more likely to do more harm to their client. They should quit and become a line order cook.

I get into similar discussions about self-segregation by people of my ethnicity. There aren't too many areas in American life where someone will never have to deal with white people. If you've self-segregated for the first 18 years of your life, how will you succeed in America? (Some of those people are my relatives, and they have serious issues with whites.)

Sorry, you lost me here.

Grambling is a HBCU- historically black college/university- with a strong history of competion in football. Their annual Thanksgiving contest against Southern in the Superdome is as big there as Texas/OU weekend at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas.

And lately, they've been losing. A lot. According to allegations by the players- who forfeited their latest game in protest- their athletic funding has dropped to such low levels that uniforms are not being cleaned, equipment is not being maintained. Players aren't being fed on 600 mile bus trips to road games.

The facilities are so run-down that the weight room is moldy and mildewed. They assert that facility conditions have contributed to several staph infection outbreaks.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-refuses-to-play-game-due-to-state-of-program

That link shows some of the most deplorable conditions in any Div.1 team facility I've ever seen.

Oh, them. Yeah, NPR had a segment about them and how terrible their facilities were. One of the reporters that went out there mentioned that there were tiles missing from the roof (which the linked articlr shows), and rusted out gym equipment. Pretty bad stuff, but they should probably just drop the football program altogether. It was mentioned in the NPR piece that a lot of it has to do with funding cuts. Supposedly other athletic programs at the college have already either been cut or have had their funding cut. The football program was actually still getting a decent amount of money, relatively, to continue on. They should have just cut the football program long ago when they saw it going down. Those players could have gone to other schools and had a better experience.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, it isn't as safe as it appears.

I meant emotionally. Any of the major team sports carry a risk of death.

Most kids that play hs football are not going to continue with it. They aren't turning pro.

The last competitive sports I played were in HS...well, except bowling...so I clearly didn't turn pro. But many of the lessons I learned about dealing with being totally outclassed were learned on the playing field.

Is it the right classeoom for that lesson for EVERY kid? No. But the lesson still needs to be learned.

Or you can settle so you don't get completely killed in court.

That decision isn't up to the attorney, it's up to the client. You may not even be allowed to withdraw- barring actually surrendering your license or something similarly drastic, the judge ultimately decides whether an attorney may withdraw from a case...even above the wishes of the parties.

IOW, you may, in fact, have to go to court and have your ass handed to you.

And you may receive that beribboned package not due to your lack of skill, but because your client is asserting something that is simply not a winning argument.

Sorry, you lost me here.

Dealing with humiliation is, IMHO, no less a necessary life lesson than learning to be able to function alongside the dominant social groups in your country's culture. In the USA, that means white people, and self-segregationists tend to have difficultly with that skill.

Likewise, extending mercy rules into HS or college athletics merely produces adults unable to cope with simply being outclassed.

Pretty bad stuff, but they should probably just drop the football program altogether.

I won't say you're wrong, but it will be hard for the administration to cut a program that was ranked in the top 100 just 2 years ago. They're more likely to try to epweather the storm- many HBCUs are struggling right now. Some of it is politics, some of it is changing demographics. And other stuff.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

I meant emotionally. Any of the major team sports carry a risk of death.

Gettig hurt and being taken out of a game can have a very emotional effect on some people. Also, kids can have rather extreme reactions to humiliation. The more humiliating an event, the more extreme their reaction can be. Again, you can teach that same lesson without having to humiliate people. At a certain point it just becomes a sadistic pleasure for the person who is claiming to be instilling a lesson about defeat.