Spectator Commentary thread for Ceramic DM (Winter 2005)

Thorod Ashstaff

First Post
Thanks Gulla & Marauder X! I appreciate all you comments. Looking back, I agree the train was uncharacteristic of Dimble, but at that point in the writing I just wanted to get him there (and I've always wanted to take the trans-Siberian myself). I hate that particular typo, it's popped up for me before, and spell check doesn't distinguish betweeh steal/steel, aaaack! There's other problems I'm finding now on re-reading, but isn't that always the way...

Mythago's story is really good! I've decided to not even THINK about judgements for the next week or so, but I love getting comments! :)
 

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BSF

Explorer
Thorod Ashstaff said:
I've decided to not even THINK about judgements for the next week or so, but I love getting comments! :)

That is probably the best policy at the moment. Piratecat posted that he has a personal crisis that has come up and he will be unavailable for a couple of days.
 

Berandor

lunatic
BardStephenFox said:
Personally, I preferred the comments to be in-thread with the stories. It helped keep the thread a little more dynamic as the contest played out. Besides comments on storywriting are fun and interesting to everyone, Judges, Authors and Spectators.
I also think a single thread would be healthier for the tournament. The commentary thread is still hard to find, it's far easier to just post a comment after you read a story than go out and search for the "other damn thread". Maybe people could be asked to post story commentary in spoilers or spoiler blocks?

The way it is now, you also have two threads of discussion going on, general writing and tournament discussion there (and here), story-specific things here, and you don't want to repeat yourself... I actually think that's part (but not all) of the reasons why it's so quiet.
I have also voiced concerns that when we bumped the contest from 8 competitors/3 rounds, to 16 competitors/4 rounds, we started asking a little too much from the Judges. We went from 14 stories to be judged to 30 stories to be judged. It is a lot to ask for, essentially, volunteer work. Perhaps Berandor or Mythago would be kind enough to give a judge's perspective on the time it takes to judge.

Of course, that is a relative issue. Some stories are easier to judge & comment on. I find that when we have good stories paired off against each other, it takes longer. I think that is a good thing since it does mean we have good stories to read. :) But there are drawbacks to that. Good stories with disparate writing styles are even more difficult to judge against.
That's another reason. The amount of stories has grown, and (to me) the tournament just takes too long. With 8 contestants, you always had 2 alternates, you had a tighter schedule. Alright, people didn't get into the line-up frequently (I tried three times, I believe), but then again, you didn't have to wait a week before finally getting the last contestant ready, and then two dropping out (me included).
Judging would be easier with 8 contestants, too - 16 stories is just a lot, and takes at least 16 weekdays to do (on average). I know I'd need a whole evening per story, normally, but I'd read it, read it again, and then read it again and make my comments. And then write my judgement. I probably did too much, but that'd take a few hours, I'd say 3. When commenting on stories, it usually only takes one reading, and I'd read the story again as I'd be writing my comments.

Finally, you have a harder time recruiting spectators. First, those 8 people that didn't get in, are already motivated for the contest, and might read and comment. Second, when someone interested takes a look at the contest, even in round 1 there are 16 stories to read, more than in a whole tournament with 8 contestants (8+4+2 = 14)

But I reall think the contest lasts too long. It loses momentum that way, if from start to finish we need 2 months, especially since it's very hard to plan for 8 weeks of spare writing time (or judging time). The earlier contests were done in 3 weeks, IIRC, which made for breezier reading. Also, a downtime of 2 months before the next Ceramic DM really gets my interest going for it, whereas now, it seems one is barely over before the new one begins. It starts to lose some of its feeling "special". And I don't think that's good.

On critiquing stories: I think longer stories are harder to judge :)
What I tried to do was giving useful feedback, as professional as possible, without taking the fun of writing away. It's a hobby contest, after all. Also, the time strain sometimes is extremely obvious, with mistakes in a story that wouldn't be there if the author had had time to proofread once (more). So with the not-so-good stories, I'd see the danger of going overboard, criticizing every small mistake and thereby totally ruining the fun for the author and also because I wouldn't want to put him up as a bad example. If the judgements were via PM, I'd have far less scruples :) Also, I'd be careful to include positive comments as well, not only bad ones.

With good stories, on the other hand, I'd have to be careful not to become too nitpicky, making the story worse than it is, or imagining flaws. There's also the problem that sometimes part of the story felt wrong, but I'd be at a loss to put it into words other than "it doesn't work for me". You might have to dig deeper for a good critique when judging a good story, is what's I'm trying to say.

That's me rambling :)

Edit: Wow. It's quite obvious I'm writing in between invoices at work, isn't it? Sorry for mistakes and stilted speech, I don't have time to correct it right now.
 
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mythago

Hero
The pic is of a Japanese warrior--I just couldn't bring myself to take the liberty of making him Chinese. (I had him ask Deirdre if she spoke Japanese partly to lean on the point that they accepted her because she too was an outsider, and partly to show I can tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese names :))
 

BSF

Explorer
I can't tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese names. Kind of wich I could. Hmm, there is probably a good site out there, somewhere, for that.

Berandor,
that's a lot of good feedback. I think you and I share some of the same concerns. But I remember how frustrating it could be to see that a new Ceramic DM was starting and by the time you see it posted, the 8 slots are filled. On the other hand, it does seem like it has been a little harder to fill 16 slots lately. It's definitely something to think about.
 

One possible solution might be open the judging pool a little. With the requirement that judges have to be former winners, you've tied yourself down to the availability of a select few. I'd like to judge, and think I could do a decent job, but with a 4-3 all-time record, I'm not likely to get the chance anytime soon.

Kinda-monthly 8 person tournaments would be preferable to quarterly 16 person setups, in my opinion. More people would get a chance to compete, and we might end up with fewer no-shows and dropouts if people knew they could skip a round and play next month. Spread the judging load around and I think it would be doable.
 

Berandor

lunatic
BardStephenFox said:
I can't tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese names. Kind of wich I could. Hmm, there is probably a good site out there, somewhere, for that.

Berandor,
that's a lot of good feedback. I think you and I share some of the same concerns. But I remember how frustrating it could be to see that a new Ceramic DM was starting and by the time you see it posted, the 8 slots are filled. On the other hand, it does seem like it has been a little harder to fill 16 slots lately. It's definitely something to think about.

Well, it was hell! I still remember reading the announcements, posting immediately, but eight others were still faster :)

You could change the way you fill the slots. Have the previous winner, and then all who want to compete (maybe within 24 hours), and draw seven more by random numbers. Or have the first six enter, and the final two be determined by poll (wild card, so to speak :))

Rodrigo: To me, Ceramic DM should be a special occasion, an event like the Iron DM contest is. If you have it every month, not only will it be harder to sustain the quality of pics, you would have to have at least two and better three sets of judges (and pic finders). Furthermore, you'd have to have enough contestants. I can also say that I probably wouldn't read each Ceramic DM tournament, which is maybe the biggest drawback (not me personally, but the lack of audience). It was fun discussing the stories with other users. This is something that seems to be missing since the last three tournaments - incidentially, the three tournaments with bigger entry field.

I couldn't even begin to read the stories now, since I'd have to read all of them, and there are already 24 or more in the contest, when earlier I'd sometimes read all stories in time for the final round.

I really think the strain on judges and writers, and audience is too hard with 16 people (or a quicker repetition) - unless the contest would be (semi-)annually. Then I can see a larger competition. I mean, we're already on more than a month and still in semi final stage. I really think the strain is showing.

What I'd do (if I were alsih2o):
Do a Ceramic DM in January, April, July, October (Winter/Spring/Summer/Fall). 8 contestants. The eight contestants with the best stats (win-lose) face off in Christmas Ceramic DM (December), winning a tournament automatically qualifies for this "Masters". Or instead of win-lose give 4 points for winning, 2 points for making the finals, and 1 for semis.

Maybe even have a "Masters Schedule" (2 groups with 4 contestants determine the finalists), and change the timing of the other contests, too, I don't know.

Or something else, I don't know. Something radical. :) But I know my first priorities would be a smooth and quick contest so that each participant could halfway plan for the duration, and keeping the uniqueness of the contest. I'm a fan of the idea of the contest. I want to see it stay alive.

Well, this was my doomsday post for today; I'm sure it's not as bleak as I think it is.

Finally, this post (and my previous one) would fit equally well into the "normal" Ceramic Dm thread, so the judges could see it, too. See what the double threads lead to? Judge segregation! Next thing we know is they're not allowed to ride on our buses anymore. :)

I guess what I'm trying to say: Should I cross-post?
 

mythago

Hero
I didn't think there was a requirement that judges be former winners--I believe alsih2o saves a slot for whoever won last time, if they want it, but the real requirement is that they be reliable. Somebody who's not been around much, or who has dropped out, etc., is not a good choice for a judge.
 

Berandor

lunatic
mythago said:
I didn't think there was a requirement that judges be former winners--I believe alsih2o saves a slot for whoever won last time, if they want it, but the real requirement is that they be reliable. Somebody who's not been around much, or who has dropped out, etc., is not a good choice for a judge.
Damn. So it's Game over for me :)

Actually, there *is* a requirement for having won a tournament, but the original judges (Maldur and, I believe, arwink) are excempt. Finally, PKitty has judged even before he won, but I think that was when Sialia won and wasn't to keen on judging, and PC headed the contest since alsih2o wanted to compete.
 

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