speculation - derived XP chart

[The Souljourner]

One of the things mentioned was how the XP system will work. There's no more CR system, instead monsters will have levels and a set XP value. I think this is very interesting, it's pretty much like 2nd edition and before, where the complexity of the XP system is integrated into the XP chart, rather than trying to make some system where higher level people get less XP from lower level monsters.

<edit> Changing my initial XP chart to mimic the one that I think better represents what we'll actually see in 4e. This assumes you want 13.33 equal level encounters to level, that 5 monsters of your level is an average encounter for a party of 5 PC, that it takes 1000xp to second level, and that all XP values for monsters is static, and closely related to their level.

That gives us 75xp for a 1st level monster, and 375 for a 5th level monster. I then just tried to fill in a nice smooth curve between 75 and 375 with each successive step being about 50% bigger than the last.

Then all I did was make every monster of level x+4 equal to 5 times the value of a monster of level x. Finally, just multiplied the previous level's monster xp value by 13.33333 and added it to the running XP total. Yay excel.

I didn't round anything off in the XP chart so you can see the actual numbers going through, but I think likely WoTC would round them off (as someone suggested below).

Level	XP Total	XP Per Equal Level Monster
			(5 of which make an equal level encounter)
1	0		75
2	1,000		125
3	2,667		175
4	5,000		250
5	8,333		375
6	13,333		625
7	21,667		875
8	33,333		1,250
9	50,000		1,875
10	75,000		3,125
11	116,667		4,375
12	175,000		6,250
13	258,333		9,375
14	383,333		15,625
15	591,667		21,875
16	883,333		31,250
17	1,300,000	46,875
18	1,925,000	78,125
19	2,966,667	109,375
20	4,425,000	156,250
21	6,508,333	234,375
22	9,633,333	390,625
23	14,841,667	546,875
24	22,133,333	781,250
25	32,550,000	1,171,875
26	48,175,000	1,953,125
27	74,216,667	2,734,375
28	110,675,000	3,906,250
29	162,758,333	5,859,375
30	240,883,333	9,765,625

-Nate

 

[The Souljourner]

<edit>

This post references the previous XP chart that I put up there, which I've now replaced with the one that seems more likely to be accurate to me

</edit>

So, using this system, it sounds like a typical monster will be worth monster level * 200. For 10th level that means 2000xp. Of course, if that's the case, it sounds like you could send a level 2 party against the guy, since a level 2 party should be fighting a battle against 2000xp worth of enemies.... and I think it's pretty clear that a level 10 guy will squish 5 level 2 guys (unless there are some major, major, changes to D&D) and at the very least, not be an "average" encounter for them.

Hmm... maybe that progression won't work after all. You'd expect that something like a 5th level single monster would be a tough challenge for a 2nd level party.

So if we assume a level +3 monster has to be worth the same as 5 monsters of the same level....

going from the "8000xp fight for an 8th level party" is normal....

that's 1600xp x 5 level 8 guys, or 8000xp for one level 11 guy.

I don't know that that can really hold up. That's a stupidly fast progression.

Anyone else have any ideas on how this could work?

-Nate

 

[Umbran]

I think the new XP chart will be calculated as adding current level * 2000 to your previous level's XP total.

From a simplicity standpoint, they'd do far better to rescale that, and make it an addition of current level * 1000.

 

[The Souljourner]

So, ignore the 8000xp for a level 8 party, I don't think that can really work out.

The very fact that we no longer have the CR chart means that XP/difficulty has to be built into the XP chart. So that you always get the same XP for the same difficulty. Thus, for example, assume 5 1st level goblins is a fair challenge for a party of 5 first level characters. Further assume those 5 goblins give the party 500 XP. If you assume that a single level 4 character will give the party a similar challenge, he also has to be 500 XP.

It's actually the XP per monster that determines the XP chart... it's just a matter of how you measure equivalencies. Deciding that a level 4 monster is equal to 5 level 1 monsters has a significant impact on the XP chart, as opposed to a level 5 = 5 level 1s...

If we assume the 3e style where a doubling of monsters = +2 on the chart, giving an arbitrary value of 100xp per 1st level monster, and assuming 10 encounters gets you up a level (these encounters will likely be more difficult that 3e "same level" encounters, so fewer is a fair assumption). You get something like this:

Level	Total XP	XP Per Monster
1	0		100
2	1,000		150
3	2,500		200
4	4,500		300
5	7,500		400
6	11,500		600
7	17,500		800
8	25,500		1,200
9	37,500		1,600
10	53,500		2,400

What x2 monsters = +2 CR means is that a guy 4 levels higher is going to be the equivalent of 4 of those lower guys. I don't know that that really works in practice. More importantly, is one level 10 guy the same as 4 level 6 guys.

... I'm not sure the doubling is the right way to go, either.

-Nate

 

[Scribble]

So in a sense 4e is reverting back to the original way of doing XP for monsters? IE fixed XP points...

 

[The Souljourner]

Yeah, exactly. Which means astronomical XP totals at higher levels.... not that there's anything wrong with that.

-Nate

 

[Szatany]

From a simplicity standpoint, they'd do far better to rescale that, and make it an addition of current level * 1000.

From simplicity standpoint, they could remove two zeroes from each number as well.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If monsters have both a level and an XP value, you can assume that the level indicates the baseline "safe" level at which you should use it.

It will probably also serve as in indicator of when the monster stops being worth any XP at all (i.e., 8 or more levels less than the average PC level).

I'm not sure where you're getting the 10 encounters to level up figure, though. In 3e, that number is 40/3 (or 13.33333333...). Certainly, they could change this.

If indeed the average party size is moving up to 5 members, the XP values only need to increase by 25% (1.25 multiplier.)

A CR1 orc is worth 300 XP in 3e; 375 XP in 4e. In either case, 40/3 of these encounters is enough XP to level up the entire party (4 PCs @ 300, 5 PCs @ 375).

From the other side of the equation:

If you wanted to design an encounter to throw enough CR1 orcs at a 5-man 1st level party to level them all up at once, you'd need 5000 XP, or 13.333333 Orcs.

In 3.0 that encounter would be about EL8.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

What x2 monsters = +2 CR means is that a guy 4 levels higher is going to be the equivalent of 4 of those lower guys. I don't know that that really works in practice.

It generally doesn't work in practice, which is why it is better to compare power equivalencies (aka, Chi-Rho, or the sum of the CRs-squared).

Part of the reason that CR didn't work very well (particularly as CR increased), was that beyond a certain point more abilities (giving more CR) was redundant. A single creature can only do so much no matter how many abilities you give him. This is one reason that it is good to see them rebalancing some of the monsters that have a fistful of wonky abilities. Very often their CR is not an accurate predictor of their combat ability.

Beyond a certain point, certain "ingredients" of CR have a highly mutable value. A 2nd level spell-like ability is worth a lot to a CR1 creature. A handful of 2nd level spell-like abilities make mid-level Demons interesting. However, when you look at the Giants, for example, whose high CR is reflective almost entirely of Hit Dice and Sheer Smashing Power, you start to see some problems.

 

[see]

I'd assume the XP chart will look a lot like p.214 of Unearthed Arcana, personally.