Spell Penetration is kinda bla

[Vraister]

Thanks for all the info but I mentioned I'm playing a druid. Did I? ;-)

With all those pesky demons and devils I think SP is worth it for me.

Vraister

 

[Jdvn1]

Analysis:

As a cleric, I know which one I'd pick! Hello Assay Resistance! Keep in mind the vulnerabilities caused by the casting time, as well as the possibility of a successful save.

As a Cleric, actually, I use Lower Spell Resistance so our Sorcerer can cast too. As a 16th level caster, fought some things with SR 30. LSR came in _really_ handy.

 

[Jdvn1]

Your DM is being easy on you. A one round casting time is killer, especially in high level combats. What level are your PCs?

Creatures with SR are generally creatures with high Int and high move. If they see the wizard setting up for a long casting time spell....

"It's time fer me t' fry up some mage-jerky!"

This is especially true if you are close enough to try that Harm monkey-business you mentioned. You know the range on that spell is "Touch", right?

Level 16. If I see a caster casting a round-long spell, I'd first guess Summon Monster VII, myself. And since my fighters stand in front of me, I don't have to worry about the big baddie going through two or three AoO's to get to me.

And, yeah, isn't stuff like Divine Reach nice? And aren't big things with low Dex's nice? Very nice. Most Dragons have about a 10 touch AC.

 

[Jdvn1]

Did I say weak? No I think I said below average.

OTOH Assay Resistance is probably too good for its level, I'd rather put it at 4th or 5th.



You mean... Round 1: Lower Spell Resistance, get attacked, fail Concentration check, repeat.

Bye
Thanee

Assay Resistance is 4th. So, yeah, putting it at 4th or 5th is about where it should go.

And, no, Round 1: Cast Lower Spell Resistance far enough from the big bad guy that he can't hit me without provoking AoO. Not that I'm _too_ worried with my +26 Concentration check (19 ranks, 3 Con, 4 Combat Casting) and DR 10/adamtine (from the Stoneskin the Sorcerer was nice enough to cast on me before combat). Round 2: Divine Reach a Harm.

Meanwhile, the Sorcerer's spells are actually getting through now. It's a really handy below-average spell.

 

[nhl_1997]

Not that I'm _too_ worried with my +26 Concentration check (19 ranks, 3 Con, 4 Combat Casting) and DR 10/adamtine (from the Stoneskin the Sorcerer was nice enough to cast on me before combat).

Combat casting only applies to casting spells on the defensive. It does not apply to concentration checks required from taking damage while casting.

Slightly different scenario:
Enemies see someone casting a spell with a long casting time.
Hmmm.... Cone of Cold (or other area damage spell).

Save for half -- 24 damage
Concentration DC: 34 + spell level versus a concentration check of 1d20+22.


Makeable (assuming a successful reflex save.)

 

[Jdvn1]

Combat casting only applies to casting spells on the defensive. It does not apply to concentration checks required from taking damage while casting.

Slightly different scenario:
Enemies see someone casting a spell with a long casting time.
Hmmm.... Cone of Cold (or other area damage spell).

Save for half -- 24 damage
Concentration DC: 34 + spell level versus a concentration check of 1d20+22.


Makeable (assuming a successful reflex save.)

You're right, I missed that. +22. The first thing that went through my mind with Thanee's post was casting defensively, then I realized that wasn't what he meant. Our combats tend to have fewer casters, so I don't worry about Cones of Cold too much. I've used it against Dragons and Living Spells with great usefulness.

Plus, I tend to get a gist of their spell arsenial is before I use LSR -- I only use it when I've cast a couple spells that have failed due to SR. That lets me cast other spells in response, like Mass Energy Resistance or something else that would help out.

 

[Thanee]

Assay Resistance is 4th. So, yeah, putting it at 4th or 5th is about where it should go.

Erm...

Ok, I thought it was 3rd for some reason.

And, no, Round 1: Cast Lower Spell Resistance far enough from the big bad guy that he can't hit me without provoking AoO. Not that I'm _too_ worried with my +26 Concentration check (19 ranks, 3 Con, 4 Combat Casting) ...

Well, depends a lot on the opponents, of course, but at the level you are talking about there, I'd expect to get 50+ damage during the casting of that spell... at range. That makes Concentration checks kinda tough.

Meanwhile, the Sorcerer's spells are actually getting through now. It's a really handy below-average spell.

The effect definitely is.

Of course, it is possible to make the spell useful (especially when using it in a party, as I said also, it's the biggest plus that others can also use benefit from the effect), but that doesn't make it better as a whole. In general, however, I'd also expect the sorcerer to have some means to beat SR (absolutely necessary for a pure spellcaster).

If both your cleric and the sorcerer had Assay Resistance, for example, you would be a lot more effective in combat most of the time, because wasting a full round is just not good at high levels IMX. At a cost, of course (sorcerer also needs to learn the spell, but really either that or Spell Penetration is a must, anyways, at high levels - it seems rather foolish to completely rely on the cleric to cast Lower Spell Resistance, well to me at least ).



@Vraister: If you use damaging/offensive spells a lot... then it might be worth it, but druids have so many other options (summon, wildshape, etc), I don't think you would need those feats.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

You're right, I missed that. +22.

Sidenote: For that very reason, Skill Focus: Concentration is actually better than Combat Casting (the +3 is certainly enough for casting on the defensive and it applies to all Concentration checks).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jdvn1]

Well, depends a lot on the opponents, of course, but at the level you are talking about there, I'd expect to get 50+ damage during the casting of that spell... at range. That makes Concentration checks kinda tough.

Yow! I've rarely if ever taken that sort of damage from one attack or spell. I'd have to be constantly Curing if that sort of stuff happened all the time. Wait... well, I'd have to be constantly Curing _myself_.

Of course, it is possible to make the spell useful (especially when using it in a party, as I said also, it's the biggest plus that others can also use benefit from the effect), but that doesn't make it better as a whole. In general, however, I'd also expect the sorcerer to have some means to beat SR (absolutely necessary for a pure spellcaster).

If both your cleric and the sorcerer had Assay Resistance, for example, you would be a lot more effective in combat most of the time, because wasting a full round is just not good at high levels IMX. At a cost, of course (sorcerer also needs to learn the spell, but really either that or Spell Penetration is a must, anyways, at high levels - it seems rather foolish to completely rely on the cleric to cast Lower Spell Resistance, well to me at least ).

I think the Sorcerer does have Spell Penetration, but that just means he had to roll a 14 instead of a 16 to beat SR for the last battle. Or something like that. Any one of the previously mentioned spells is _much_ handier. Plus, you could always Rapid Spell (CDv; but use with Spell Vulnerability to use a lower slot) to make it a standard action if you were really worried about it. Honestly, though, if the bad guys are going to go after the casters before the fighters, they generally go after the Sorcerer before the Cleric. Easier to kill and a bigger damage output. At least, in my games.

 

[Jdvn1]

Sidenote: For that very reason, Skill Focus: Concentration is actually better than Combat Casting (the +3 is certainly enough for casting on the defensive and it applies to all Concentration checks).

Never thought of that, good idea!