D&D 5E Spell Point Variant in Play

[The Myopic Sniper]

I would probably adjust the number of points downward and have spell points refresh on short rests and look more like the Warlock in terms of spell effectiveness, but keep 6 -9 as a dailies as with both the Warlock and spell point system.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

Another, non-Fireball example: a paranoid 7th level wizard might have Dimension Door/Feather Fall in reserve at all times ("in case of emergency, teleport 500 feet straight up!"). Without spell points, that means he never gets to cast Polymorph at all, but with spell points, he just has to ensure that he never drops below 8 spell points.

There are definitely some levels where spell points are a huge bonus, such as 7th. In a normal game you would have a single 4th level slot, but with spell points you have 38 points, and 4th level spells cost 5 points. So you could end up with 6 more castings of a 4th level spell per day than RAW. (This is reminds me that the spell costs are kinda of wonky compared to previous systems where spells cost a number of points equal to the level you accessed the spells. So 1st were 1 point, 2nd were 3 points, 3rd were 5 points, etc. In that system, you got several magnitudes more lower level spells, but not as many higher level spells as is what's possible in 5E).

That's the kind of balance I'm curious about, and why I was hoping people might have stories of when it came up during play. Right now I see how good that looks on paper, but I still have no practical experience with whether it will be a problem or not.

 

[Jessic]

There are definitely some levels where spell points are a huge bonus, such as 7th. In a normal game you would have a single 4th level slot, but with spell points you have 38 points, and 4th level spells cost 5 points. So you could end up with 6 more castings of a 4th level spell per day than RAW. (This is reminds me that the spell costs are kinda of wonky compared to previous systems where spells cost a number of points equal to the level you accessed the spells. So 1st were 1 point, 2nd were 3 points, 3rd were 5 points, etc. In that system, you got several magnitudes more lower level spells, but not as many higher level spells as is what's possible in 5E).

That's the kind of balance I'm curious about, and why I was hoping people might have stories of when it came up during play. Right now I see how good that looks on paper, but I still have no practical experience with whether it will be a problem or not.

Every spell level in 5e costs more points than the spell level it is cost at.

Spell Level : Point Cost
lst : 2
2nd : 3
3rd : 5
4th : 6
5th : 7
6th : 9
7th : 10
8th : 11
9th : 13

At 7th level, you have 38 points, and could cast 4th level spells 5 times extra than the spell slot system.

To be honest, I really like the spell slot system. If the variant, as written in the DMG, is too strong, you can simply increase the cost of the spells.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

There are definitely some levels where spell points are a huge bonus, such as 7th. In a normal game you would have a single 4th level slot, but with spell points you have 38 points, and 4th level spells cost 5 points. So you could end up with 6 more castings of a 4th level spell per day than RAW. (This is reminds me that the spell costs are kinda of wonky compared to previous systems where spells cost a number of points equal to the level you accessed the spells. So 1st were 1 point, 2nd were 3 points, 3rd were 5 points, etc. In that system, you got several magnitudes more lower level spells, but not as many higher level spells as is what's possible in 5E).

That's the kind of balance I'm curious about, and why I was hoping people might have stories of when it came up during play. Right now I see how good that looks on paper, but I still have no practical experience with whether it will be a problem or not.

Correction: 4th level spells cost 6 spell points, not 5. But your basic point is sound.

I don't have many specific stories to tell because only been using spell points for a couple of months. Yes, my necromancer player mostly ignores 1st and 2nd level spells: in our most recent session he (7th level Necromancer) cast Chill Touch a bunch of times, Dispel Magic once, and Bestow Curse once. The session before that he cast Animate Dead twice, Vampiric Touch twice, Fire Shield once, and maybe a few Chill Touches. That is one more 3rd level spell than he would have been able to cast in that session with spell slots, but was that a problem? Not in my eyes. YMMV.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

Correction: 4th level spells cost 6 spell points, not 5. But your basic point is sound.

Thanks for catching that.

Interesting tidbits on your Necromancer. How does he like spell points so far? Has he enjoyed the flexibility (perceived or actual) when it comes to knowing what he can cast each day?

 

[Unwise]

I was considering using Spell Slots as either a feature of a particular magic school, or as part of Sorcery. I think it fits sorcery very well, particularly for chaos sorcerers. I think it would be a cool feature for the class, playing up the flexibility within a limited scope of spells aspect. My players feel that sorcerers could use some help, so maybe this is a good idea to further separate them from wizards.

My players also think that without a Wizard having spell slots and memorizing spells, it is not really D&D. That is not as negative as it sounds, as D&D has never been their preferred game. So I might keep Wizards as Vancian casters.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thanks for catching that.

Interesting tidbits on your Necromancer. How does he like spell points so far? Has he enjoyed the flexibility (perceived or actual) when it comes to knowing what he can cast each day?

I'm sure he has. Why wouldn't he? It's simpler, more aesthetic, and more powerful--what's not to like? The only case I can imagine where someone wouldn't enjoy spell points is if they're bad at math. In fact, that's basically how the DMG phrases it: the supposed tradeoff is "more versatility but also more complexity," but in reality it's more versatility and more simplicity. He casts Vampiric Touch, I say, "That'll be five spell points please," he removes five spell points. Managing one resource pool is just plain simpler than managing four interlinked resource pools, one per spell level.

My players also think that without a Wizard having spell slots and memorizing spells, it is not really D&D. That is not as negative as it sounds, as D&D has never been their preferred game. So I might keep Wizards as Vancian casters.

Technically, 5E wizards are already non-Vancian. They simply have multiple pools of spell points which they call "spell slots", but their spells don't behave anything like Vance's reified magic wherein spells are like munitions that you laboriously create and then expend. (Well, at least in some of his stories. More powerful Vancian wizards seem to work differently, with some "words of power" usable at will.)

 

[Ricochet]

In my experience, spell point systems lead inexorably to 5-minute work days, because you can exhaust all of your points _very rapidly_ by using all top level spells, and have little incentive not to do so.

It's possible 5E dodges some of that (many spells scale horribly so it's not worth increasing them), but I don't believe that's the case.

We played Pathfinder with spell points but I had to abandon it at high levels (17, but it was really a problem already at 12 or so). Just complete overloading on high-level spells broke the game. The group is level 18 now, and it's a much better game once more.

I know 5e handles it slightly different with high level slots, but here's my conclusion from Pathfinder: Works great at low-mid levels. Smashes balance at high levels (and made non-casters feel even more useless than they were already becoming. "Hey, why is the wizard suddenly able to use his best stuff 5x as much when I don't get more of my abilities," screamed the angry Fighter. ).

5 minute days aren't an issue either at high levels. A high level caster has a LOT of spell points.

It can also disheartening for players who are used to spell points to have the plug pulled on them at high levels. I know a few of my players were sad because they'd become so powerful, but everyone knew they had to go.

 

[Ricochet]

At 7th level, you have 38 points, and could cast 4th level spells 5 times extra than the spell slot system.

Yep, it still works there, but soon thereafter you are going to see caster power spiking up and leaving other classes in the dust.

 

[Jaelommiss]

Using spell slots, I forsee a lot of defensive spellcasters taking a level in wizard or sorcorer. Paladin 9/Sorcorer 1 would have 13 uses of Shield each day. Cleric 9/Wizard 1 would have 32. Even a third level War Cleric 2/Wizard 1 would be able to fire off 7 Shield spells daily. Elditch Knights take a bit longer before their spell points start stacking up, but they also don't have to multiclass for this.