D&D 5E Spell Point Variant in Play

[Pvt. Winslow]

We played Pathfinder with spell points but I had to abandon it at high levels (17, but it was really a problem already at 12 or so). Just complete overloading on high-level spells broke the game. The group is level 18 now, and it's a much better game once more.

I know 5e handles it slightly different with high level slots, but here's my conclusion from Pathfinder: Works great at low-mid levels. Smashes balance at high levels (and made non-casters feel even more useless than they were already becoming. "Hey, why is the wizard suddenly able to use his best stuff 5x as much when I don't get more of my abilities," screamed the angry Fighter. ).

5 minute days aren't an issue either at high levels. A high level caster has a LOT of spell points.

It can also disheartening for players who are used to spell points to have the plug pulled on them at high levels. I know a few of my players were sad because they'd become so powerful, but everyone knew they had to go.

Thanks for sharing this. This is the kind of story I was hoping to read. Now, in your opinion, with Concentration spells, and with most spells allowing a saving throw each round to end, do you foresee this problem being as severe in 5E? I mean, that does nothing for balancing more uses of pure utility spells like Teleport and Scry, but it should still help with some of the encounter balance.

Using spell slots, I forsee a lot of defensive spellcasters taking a level in wizard or sorcorer. Paladin 9/Sorcorer 1 would have 13 uses of Shield each day. Cleric 9/Wizard 1 would have 32. Even a third level War Cleric 2/Wizard 1 would be able to fire off 7 Shield spells daily. Elditch Knights take a bit longer before their spell points start stacking up, but they also don't have to multiclass for this.

Right. So in 5E for spell points, a Paladin and Ranger levels are halved when determining total spell points, so 9 levels of Paladin are halved (rounded down to 4) with 1 level of Sorcerer means you have the spell points of a 5th level caster (which is 27). That gets you 13 uses of Shield. Without spell points, when multiclassing you still halve Paladin levels when determining slots per day, so a Paladin 9/Sorcerer 1 has 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd, or 9 uses of Shield. That means spell points gets you 4 extra uses of shield.

However, whereas with spell slots, if you used a 3rd level slot for a different spell, you still have 8 uses of Shield left, with spell points, if you use a 3rd level slot (which uses 5 spell points), you actually lose out on 2 uses of Shield, dropping you from 13 to 11. Another 3rd level spell with slots at you're at 7 uses of Shield left, another 3rd level spell with points and you drop another 2, to 9 left. I wonder if this actually goes a way towards bringing the two styles closer.

Similiarly, Cleric 9/Wizard 1 is 64 spell points (32 uses) and 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, 2 5th slots (15 uses). So over double. However, a use of a 5th level spell with slots and you lose 1 Shield, a 5th level spell with points and you lose 3 Shields.

Basically, if you build a character around using a specific spell, such as Shield, spell points gives you the ability to cast purely that spell an increasing magnitude more (looks like 50% more at lower levels, to double at mid levels, to likely triple or quadruple at high). However, if you cast even a few higher spells, uses of you signature spell dwindle at a much faster rate than with slots.

What do you guys think? Remembering that you can still only cast one spell an Action, how far off do you think balance will be?

I have to admit, Shield is a great example of imbalance. A character capable of casting Shield upwards of 20 times a day can practically treat their AC as +5 permanently. I'm not sure how the game could handle that.

 

[Ricochet]

Thanks for sharing this. This is the kind of story I was hoping to read. Now, in your opinion, with Concentration spells, and with most spells allowing a saving throw each round to end, do you foresee this problem being as severe in 5E? I mean, that does nothing for balancing more uses of pure utility spells like Teleport and Scry, but it should still help with some of the encounter balance.

I think it will still pose similar problems, though not nearly to the extent it does in Pathfinder or 3e/3.5e where one can front-load high level spells.

Mind you I haven't tried the system in 5e, and I most likely won't, but I don't think it's balanced all right up to about level 10-12. I think casters will become overpowered after that, and their power grows at a rapid pace compared to non-casters. So for a short adventure or low-level stuff, spell points are a nice touch, but I'd never use them as is for a long campaign I expect to go above mid-levels.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

I think it will still pose similar problems, though not nearly to the extent it does in Pathfinder or 3e/3.5e where one can front-load high level spells.

Mind you I haven't tried the system in 5e, and I most likely won't, but I don't think it's balanced all right up to about level 10-12. I think casters will become overpowered after that, and their power grows at a rapid pace compared to non-casters. So for a short adventure or low-level stuff, spell points are a nice touch, but I'd never use them as is for a long campaign I expect to go above mid-levels.

Good points. Maybe that's traditionally what's wrong with spell point systems. The amount of points given should plateau and then increase very little. So you trade out the amount of spells that a spell slot system gives in exchange for greater flexibility in what spells you actually cast. No idea how one would go about making that change. It would probably require a rework from the ground up.

 

[Ricochet]

Good points. Maybe that's traditionally what's wrong with spell point systems. The amount of points given should plateau and then increase very little. So you trade out the amount of spells that a spell slot system gives in exchange for greater flexibility in what spells you actually cast. No idea how one would go about making that change. It would probably require a rework from the ground up.

I think the inherent problem is that you get to ignore/replace lower power abilities with more of your higher power ones. There is little downside to doing this at all. But would be interesting to read some play-reports from someone who uses it past mid-levels! Who knows - it might balance fine in 5e

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

I think the inherent problem is that you get to ignore/replace lower power abilities with more of your higher power ones. There is little downside to doing this at all. But would be interesting to read some play-reports from someone who uses it past mid-levels! Who knows - it might balance fine in 5e

Well, my campaign will be staring at 10th level, and I plan to have them reach the higher levels. Hopefully I should be able to gather some good stories on how it turns out. At least one player will be making a Bard, and I think another is making a Transmuter.

 

[Bupp]

I'm waiting to see a psionics system I like and use the spell point system with that.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thanks for sharing this. This is the kind of story I was hoping to read. Now, in your opinion, with Concentration spells, and with most spells allowing a saving throw each round to end, do you foresee this problem being as severe in 5E? I mean, that does nothing for balancing more uses of pure utility spells like Teleport and Scry, but it should still help with some of the encounter balance.

Teleport is above the 5th level threshold. At high levels, 5E spell points basically function as a pool of spell points (for levels 1-5) and regular old spell slots (for levels 6+). Unless you are worried about down-conversion of high-level spells into large numbers of little spells (Shield, etc.), this means that you will never hit the high-level problems ParagonOfVirtue experienced. Levels 6-9 still run off a "slot" system even with spellpoints.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

Teleport is above the 5th level threshold. At high levels, 5E spell points basically function as a pool of spell points (for levels 1-5) and regular old spell slots (for levels 6+). Unless you are worried about down-conversion of high-level spells into large numbers of little spells (Shield, etc.), this means that you will never hit the high-level problems ParagonOfVirtue experienced. Levels 6-9 still run off a "slot" system even with spellpoints.

Ah, forgot that Teleport was 6th level.

I guess it comes down to, how powerful is it to be able to cast nothing but 4th and 5th level spells, vs. having to cast lower level spells once your higher level slots are expended? I think Concentration is something that can't be underestimated. It hasn't existed in its current incarnation in previous editions. I could see a caster using say Bigby's Hand, then shooting Fireballs as his staple tactic in combat. However, Concentration prevents something like casting Bigby's Hand and use the Grasping Hand action with it, then cast Cloudkill around the enemy, then cast Hold Monster on any targets in the cloud that your hand isn't grappling.

Combos like that are what make being able to cast non-stop high level spells broken, and 5E found a way to limit that. Really, spell points just mean you can't balance casters around the idea that they'll lose strength on the 7th encounter of the day, but I think 5E has been getting away from that style of encounter balance anyway.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Teleport is 7th level, not 6th.

If casting 4th and 5th level spells nonstop were an issue, ParagonOfVirtue would have seen problems starting at mid-levels around 7, not just at level 17.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

Teleport is 7th level, not 6th.

If casting 4th and 5th level spells nonstop were an issue, ParagonOfVirtue would have seen problems starting at mid-levels around 7, not just at level 17.

That's a good point, but at level 7 they would still be somewhat limited based on spell points. By 12th+, that's when they'd have so many spell points they could cast 4th to 5th level spells with abandon.

(And damn, Teleport is really turning out to be my mental nemesis).