Spell Resistance

[Hawken]

Here's an alternate rule on Spell Resistance that I came up with for one of my games. It is kind of a 3rd edition version of the original Magic Resistance (a fixed value resistance).

SR is broken down into 4 types; Minor, Moderate, Major, Full, and have the following values:

Minor SR: 6
Moderate SR: 11
Major SR: 16
Full SR: 21

Attackers targeting those with SR with any spell or spell like ability (anything SR would normally protect against) must roll a D20. Their roll must equal or exceed the value provided by the SR to affect the target.

The roll can be modified by the caster's level in relation to the targets level:
Caster level 3 or more levels lower than target: -2 to roll.
Caster level 2 less to 2 more than target: +0 to roll.
Caster level 3 or more levels higher than target: +2 to roll.

Spell Pentration feat: +1 to caster roll.
Greater Spell Penetration feat: +3 to caster roll.

New Feats
BOLSTER SPELL RESISTANCE
Prereq: Character must have SR.
Benefit: Target's SR is so strong that it is treated as 2 points higher than the listed value. As such, a target with this feat and Moderate SR treats his SR value as 13 instead of 11.
Note: This feat can be taken a second time.

UPGRADE SPELL RESISTANCE
Prereq: Bolster Spell Resistance feat, Base Will save +6 or higher.
Benefit: Target's SR upgrades to next higher degree (Minor to Moderate, etc.) or gains a +5 bonus to SR. This feat replaces the benefit of the Bolster SR feat.
Note: This feat can be taken a second time once the target's base Will save increases by +3 or more from the first time this feat was taken.

ABLATE SPELL RESISTANCE
Prereq: Cast spells or spell-like abilities.
Benefit: Each time a target with SR successfully resists your spells or spell like abilities, their SR decreases in value by 1.
Note: Targets regain lost SR points at a rate of 1 per hour.

SPELL RESISTANCE SURGE
Prereq: Spell Resistance.
Benefit: For 1 hour a day, the character's SR increases by 5. Once the surge ends, the target's SR is reduced to 3 less than its normal level for the next 4 hours.

SUPERIOR SPELL RESISTANCE
Prereq: Spell Resistance.
Benefit: When faced with a spell, spell like ability or any magical effect that SR normally would not protect against, the subject may forego his saving throw in exchange for a SR check as if his SR would normally work. If the effect beats the SR, then the target is affected as if they failed their saving throw.

RESIST MAGIC
Prereq: Spell Resistance
Benefit: The character is able to resist magical effects that would not normally be covered by SR, such as damage from a Dragon's Breath Weapon or a Warlock's Eldritch Blast. The character is protected from an amount of damage per attack that is equal to 1/2 their SR value.

 

[Kerrick]

Not bad. I was thinking instead of having flat values, you could make them relative to HD - for example, minor would be HD -2, moderate = HD, major HD +4, and full HD +8. Or maybe have a range - HD -1d4, HD +0, HD +1d6, and full HD +2d8. That way, DMs and designers can have a little wiggle room to vary SRs.

Having flat values is easy, but once you hit mid-teens, even full SR quickly loses its effectiveness - a L15 caster with no feats would have to roll a 9 or better to overcome SR 21; at epic levels, SR becomes meaningless entirely. With a variable, not all creatures will be the same - even those of the same type can have different SRs if the DM feels like changing things up to stymie the players. Basing it on HD, likewise, makes it scale more easily to all levels of play.

The major problem, of course, is that creatures with huge numbers of HD could have waaaay too high SR - generally, the bigger they are, the higher their SR. I'd probably come up with some rule for monster design about applying SR, but there would likely still be problems.

How would you handle spells like spell resistance and items like the mantle of spell resistance? Just have them grant a flat value?

 

[Hawken]

Actually, I kind of modeled it off of Drow. In earlier editions, they essentially had 50% MR. So, translatng 50%, you come up with 1-10, spell fails, 11-20, it works. Thus, mid-grade SR.

And the fixed value means no caster level checks. Just a single d20. Even at 15th level, against a 15th level target with moderate (SR 11) resistance, that caster still needs to roll an 11 or higher to beat the SR, unless he takes Spell Penetration.

It applies to Epic too, just as easily. A 25th level caster shooting on a target with Major resistance (SR 16), still has to roll a 16 or higher on his d20 roll to beat the SR, unless he has Spell Pen. or happens to be 3 levels higher than the target. And if he is 3 levels lower, he has to roll a 19 or 20!

My intention was to eliminate level/HD based modifiers. If you have a 50% (moderate) resistance, you've got a 50% resistance unless you're facing somebody with considerably more power than you (+3 levels) or considerably less power (-3 levels). Spell Penetration becomes a feat worth taking once again. And the feats I listed provide plenty of 'wiggle room' for manipulating SR for DMs and players that happen to get SR.

As for spells or items that grant SR, I'd have it grant one of the fixed values. A Mantle of Moderate Spell Resistance, for example. While the SR granted by a spell scales with the level of the caster. Spell Resistance could be broken down much like the Restoration spell: Minor Spell Resistance, Moderate Spell Resistance, Major Spell Resistance, etc. Make Minor a 3rd level spell, Moderate a 5th, Major a 7th (which is what Spell Resistance is, I believe, off the top of my head), and Full becomes a 9th level spell. The power levels seem right as Minor SR is basically a personal, ongoing Dispel Magic.

 

[Kerrick]

Actually, I kind of modeled it off of Drow. In earlier editions, they essentially had 50% MR. So, translatng 50%, you come up with 1-10, spell fails, 11-20, it works. Thus, mid-grade SR.

Aha. I was thinking about this today. I like variability and ranges, so I'd probably take the base values and add a +1d4 modifier to each - this would accomplish the goal I stated above without changing the basis system you've got. Course, if you don't want the the categories to overlap (i.e., a creature with minor SR can't get any higher than 10), my idea wouldn't work too well.

And the fixed value means no caster level checks. Just a single d20. Even at 15th level, against a 15th level target with moderate (SR 11) resistance, that caster still needs to roll an 11 or higher to beat the SR, unless he takes Spell Penetration.

Ohhh, I see now. Hmm. I kind of like the idea of an archmage being able to penetrate SR more easily than a novice, so adding the CL to the check makes sense. Maybe you could add a bonus for ranks in Spellcraft instead, like 1/3, 1/4, or 1/5? Someone who's very knowledgeable in how spells work would reasonably have a bonus to get around a creature's SR.

It applies to Epic too, just as easily. A 25th level caster shooting on a target with Major resistance (SR 16), still has to roll a 16 or higher on his d20 roll to beat the SR, unless he has Spell Pen. or happens to be 3 levels higher than the target. And if he is 3 levels lower, he has to roll a 19 or 20!

Ouch.

My intention was to eliminate level/HD based modifiers. If you have a 50% (moderate) resistance, you've got a 50% resistance unless you're facing somebody with considerably more power than you (+3 levels) or considerably less power (-3 levels). Spell Penetration becomes a feat worth taking once again. And the feats I listed provide plenty of 'wiggle room' for manipulating SR for DMs and players that happen to get SR.

True, true. I agree that SR needs an overhaul. Your idea is starting to gain traction, but I want to think on it a bit.

As for spells or items that grant SR, I'd have it grant one of the fixed values. A Mantle of Moderate Spell Resistance, for example. While the SR granted by a spell scales with the level of the caster. Spell Resistance could be broken down much like the Restoration spell: Minor Spell Resistance, Moderate Spell Resistance, Major Spell Resistance, etc. Make Minor a 3rd level spell, Moderate a 5th, Major a 7th (which is what Spell Resistance is, I believe, off the top of my head), and Full becomes a 9th level spell. The power levels seem right as Minor SR is basically a personal, ongoing Dispel Magic.

SR the spell is 5th, actually. You could simply drop it to 3rd, and have it scale with caster level - it grants SR equal to CL+3.

 

[Hawken]

Aha. I was thinking about this today. I like variability and ranges, so I'd probably take the base values and add a +1d4 modifier to each - this would accomplish the goal I stated above without changing the basis system you've got. Course, if you don't want the the categories to overlap (i.e., a creature with minor SR can't get any higher than 10), my idea wouldn't work too well.

Actually, I like that idea. Also, there wouldn't have to be any overlap. Try this:

Minor SR: 5 + 1d4. Produces an SR range of 6-9.
Moderate SR: 10 + 1d4. Produces an SR range of 11-14.
Major SR: 15 + 1d4. Produces an SR range of 16-19.
Full SR: 20 + 1d4. Produces an SR range of 21-24.

Total randomness in producing SR. Everyone has one of the types of SR, but a different value for each person.

I still like the idea of my level based modifiers and Spell Penetration being the only factors capable of beating an SR check. I hate to do a "back in the day" example, but...back in 1e/2e, Magic Resistance was a pretty big deal. It was cool and things that had it were bad-ass! Nowadays, SR is much easier to acquire, and also much easier to overcome. SR is pretty much only a given now when facing foes that are much lower level--that you don't even really need the SR against.

Ohhh, I see now. Hmm. I kind of like the idea of an archmage being able to penetrate SR more easily than a novice, so adding the CL to the check makes sense. Maybe you could add a bonus for ranks in Spellcraft instead, like 1/3, 1/4, or 1/5? Someone who's very knowledgeable in how spells work would reasonably have a bonus to get around a creature's SR.

My level based modifiers basically allow for that without having to stop and do math. They either get a bonus or a penalty or not. Interesting premise though, but kind of flawed. According to your logic, a wizard skilled in Spellcraft would be better able to penetrate SR, but then an opponent equally skilled in Spellcraft should be able to equally bolster his SR.

SR the spell is 5th, actually. You could simply drop it to 3rd, and have it scale with caster level - it grants SR equal to CL+3.

Heh! I was guessing at the level, in a hurry to post before running off to work.

As for SR the spell, make 4 versions; a 3rd level spell, a 5th, 7th and 9th; with each spell granting a progressively higher degree of SR. A scaling spell would mean that a high level wizard would get Full SR from a 3rd level spell!

 

[Kerrick]

Actually, I like that idea. Also, there wouldn't have to be any overlap. Try this:

Minor SR: 5 + 1d4. Produces an SR range of 6-9.
Moderate SR: 10 + 1d4. Produces an SR range of 11-14.
Major SR: 15 + 1d4. Produces an SR range of 16-19.
Full SR: 20 + 1d4. Produces an SR range of 21-24.

Total randomness in producing SR. Everyone has one of the types of SR, but a different value for each person.

There you go. That's exactly what I was aiming for.

I still like the idea of my level based modifiers and Spell Penetration being the only factors capable of beating an SR check. I hate to do a "back in the day" example, but...back in 1e/2e, Magic Resistance was a pretty big deal. It was cool and things that had it were bad-ass!

The level-based modifiers aren't bad; I remember the bad old days of magic resistance.

Nowadays, SR is much easier to acquire, and also much easier to overcome. SR is pretty much only a given now when facing foes that are much lower level--that you don't even really need the SR against.

Yeah...SR and darkvision are waay too common. I changed darkvision to a supernatural ability that can be gained only via a spell or magic item, or if you're a magical creature (dragon, magical beast, undead), but it enables you to see in magical darkness. With SR, I'd definitely limit who had it - outsiders, some magical creatures, and that's about it - the rest would be spells or magic items only.

My level based modifiers basically allow for that without having to stop and do math. They either get a bonus or a penalty or not. Interesting premise though, but kind of flawed. According to your logic, a wizard skilled in Spellcraft would be better able to penetrate SR, but then an opponent equally skilled in Spellcraft should be able to equally bolster his SR.

True. 1d20+mods vs. SR is very easy to remember.

As for SR the spell, make 4 versions; a 3rd level spell, a 5th, 7th and 9th; with each spell granting a progressively higher degree of SR. A scaling spell would mean that a high level wizard would get Full SR from a 3rd level spell!

Yeah.. I was just trying to cut down the number of spells, but you have a point - a L3 spell would scale only so far. If we add the variables, it would grant SR 5 + 1d4 - kind of a "roll of the dice" thing. I like it.

 

[Hawken]

Thanks for the input and the challenges, Kerrick. You've helped me detail this out where its better than I expected.

Anyone else have an opinion on this? Yea? Nay?

 

[Kerrick]

Thanks for the input and the challenges, Kerrick. You've helped me detail this out where its better than I expected.

Sure thing! You mind if I yoink this?

 

[Hawken]

Yoink away! You're as responsible for the way it turned out as me.

When you playtest it with your group (if you're going to), let me know how it turns out and what your players think.

 

[Kerrick]

Unfortunately, I don't have a group right now , but I am looking for one. When I get PP online, I'll do a push for some playtesters.