Kerrick
First Post
A reinforcement of existing barriers IS a save bonus, AFAICT. If it's not, I don't understand what you mean.
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Spell Resistance
- Thread starter Hawken
- Start date
Good point.
You forgot your new DC formula, which would increase it to DC 29. If you decide to divide SR by 3 vs. DC 29, you get +25 Fort vs. DC 29, which is also an 85% chance of success. Vs no save spells, you get +16 Fort vs. DC 29, which is a 40% chance of success. Slightly better than the 3.5 math, but very close.If we went with 28/3 = +9, the devil would have a +25 Fort save vs. the wizard's DC 24, or a 105% chance of success. Hmm... maybe that's not such a good idea after all.If we divide by 5, it'd be +21, or an 85% chance of success. Vs. no-save spells (like power word: kill), his Fort save would be +16 vs. the DC 24, or 60%. Not bad for getting a free save.
The point is what the spell can effect. Hold Person affects only a specific category of creatures while Hold Monster gets just about everything else. That's the point.
The idea behind the alternate save formula (10 + 1/2 caster lvl + stat) is that the power behind the spells is based on the caster, not the spells themselves. Otherwise, lower level spells become 'throw-away' spells that don't really get used against someone and basically encourages casters to dump all their powerful spells right off the bat because of the DC rather than whether the spell is actually appropriate or not. It means that the 20th Wiz casting spells is going to have save DCs the same whether its a Fireball or a Meteor Swarm.
If you want to run SR as a bonus to saves rather than a separate roll, you could adapt a variation of my original suggestion on SR: Minor, Moderate, Major and Full SR.
Minor = +2 bonus/DC +6
Moderate = +4 bonus/DC +3
Major = +8 bonus/DC -3
Full = +12 bonus/DC -6
The bonus could apply to saves or AC, depending on the nature of the magical attack. For saves, they get the listed bonus to their saves against magical effects. If their save equals or exceeds the DC listed with their resistance, their SR works and they suffer no effects from the magic. In the case of Major or Full SR, they make their save if they hit the DC modified as above and SR kicks in if they make the original DC of the magical effect.
For AC, increase the target's AC by the listed bonus, if the attacker hits the 'normal' AC, his attack hits, but any magical effects, must hit the 'magical AC' provided by the SR bonus, or the target is not affected by the magical attack.
In the case of magic that doesn't offer a save, give them a save with the SR bonus in place of their normal save bonus.
Example 1: Lightning Bolt (DC 20) vs. target w/minor SR (+2 save bonus/SR DC of +6).
Target makes a Reflex save with a +2 bonus for his SR. If he makes the DC, he takes 1/2 damage (as normal) for the spell. If he beats the DC (20) by the amount his SR allows (DC + 6, or DC 26) on his save, then he is unaffected by the Lightning Bolt.
Example 2: Cleric with Major SR being attacked by enemy with +2 Shock Longsword. Cleric AC is normally 16; SR AC is 24.
The attacker must hit an AC of 16 to hit the cleric with his weapon. To affect the cleric with the Shock property of his weapon and the magical enhancement bonus, he must hit an AC of 24. On a 15 or less, the attacker misses. On a 16-23, the attacker hits and rolls damage, but does not include the damage from the +2 enhancement of his weapon or the Shock property. On a 24+ attack roll, the cleric suffers the normal damage of the weapon, the +2 enhancement to damage, and the damage from the Shock property.
Example 3: Target with Full SR hit by a spell that does not grant a saving throw.
The character uses +12 (his SR bonus) as his base save; with all other modifiers added in, he has a +20 save modifier. The save for spell is calculated as if it normally granted one (10 + 1/2 caster level + stat), and in this case that happens to be a 30. The character makes his saving throw if he gets a 24 (DC -6), suffering half the normal effects, but if he rolls the original DC (30), then he is unaffected by the magic, protected by his SR.
Kerrick
First Post
I did, didn't I? I didn't want to cloud the issue with variant rules, but you're right - my formula works better with SR/3. Thanks - I'll update my rules.
I understand, but what I meant was: against a humanoid opponent (as an example), what's the point of casting hold monster when hold person will do just as well? Sure, hold monster is much more versatile, but if the DCs are the same, you're better off burning the low-level spell (which would normally have a lower DC) and saving the better one for later. 1d20 + 1/2 caster level + spell level factors in both caster power AND spell power, which is as it should be, IMO.
But it still boosts the overall save DCs. Compare: 10 + spell level + stat mod vs. 10 + CL + stat vs. 10 + CL + SL (we'll assume minimum level and stats):
Fireball: (DC 10 + 3 + 1 = 14) vs. (DC 10 + 5 + 1 = 16) vs. (DC 10 + 5 + 3 = 18).
Meteor swarm: (DC 10 + 9 + 4 = 23) vs. (DC 10 + 17 + 4 = 31) vs. (DC 10 + 17 + 9 = 36).
I've done an analysis of saves vs. my DCs, and they work out just fine.
I didn't really understand this until I read the examples. That's kinda slick.
Magical enhancements aren't subject to SR, unless this is something you're adding for your rule (which I wouldn't recommend). AC bonuses would apply against things like rays.
I like the different thoughts on spell resistance on this thread. There are several different versions of "yoinkable" game rules! Cool.
I think the objective here is to add some "punch" to monster SR to give it that 1st edition feel. The second objective is to simplify the system, to make it less complex. Finally, I would argue that a quick review of the overall game system requires a quick review of balance considerations related to spellcasters.
So, to boil down these combat effects to their underlying broth, what you uncover is that in combat there are two ways to get to damage: overcome damage avoidance, and overcome damage reduction.
Damage avoidance is directly related in the game in three forms AC, SR, and an avoidance check. The levels of damage avoidance in the game include: full effect (hit), no effect (no hit).
Damage reduction prevents some or all of the damage dealt from an attack. The primary benefit of damage reduction is a saving throw, which typically reduces the damage effect in half. Beyond that, there can be damage reduction in one of many, many forms. This damage reduction creates an entire sub-system that is overly cumbersome.
As it relates to damage avoidance, AC is easily manipulated by modifiers that are in the player's control, including tactical considerations. SR is NOT available to players, and is often not easily manipulated by the player. I would say, given this consideration, it would make more sense to make damage avoidance VERY simple as a sub-system. Playing off of Hawken's original theory, I think damage avoidance should simply be:
Minor: DA 5 (6 or higher to succeed)
Moderate: DA 10 (11 or higher to succeed)
Major: DA 15 (16 or higher to succeed)
I would also recommend ret-conning all the related "avoidance" effects into this new, simpler subsystem. The damage avoidance rules that can allow a player to avoid damage or an effect from the SRD include:
Rogue/Monk/Ranger/Shadowdancer Evasion Moderate vs. any AoE attack
Rogue/Monk/Shadowdancer Improved Evasion Major vs. any AoE attack, half dam
Rogue/Shadowdancer Defensive Roll Moderate vs. any melee attack
Rogue/Shadowdancer Slippery Mind Moderate vs. any enchantment/charm
Monk's Diamond Body Moderate vs. spells
Monk's Deflect Arrows Minor(Moderate) vs. ranged attacks
Feat Deflect Arrows Minor vs. ranged attacks
Feat Mounted Combat Moderate vs. ONE melee attack
Cover (Full) Major vs. AoE attack
Concealment Minor (Moderate) vs. any attack roll
Spell Sanctuary Major vs. any attack roll (action redirect)
Spell Blur Minor vs. any attack roll
Spell Mirror Image Minor vs. any attack roll (AoE dispels)
Spell Invisibility Minor vs. any attack roll
Spell Entropic Shield Minor vs. any ranged attack roll
Spell Blink Minor vs. any attack roll or AoE attack
Spell Improved Invisibility Moderate vs. any attack roll
Spell Fire Shield, Cold Shield Major vs. fire/cold attack
Spell Spell Resistance Moderate vs. any spell
Spell Spell Turning Moderate vs. any spell + turn
Spell Word of Chaos, Shield of Law Moderate vs. any spell (multiple targets)
Spell Holy Aura, Unholy Aura Moderate vs. any spell (multiple targets)
Item Holy Sword Moderate vs. any spell
Item Armor of Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflecting Minor vs. ranged attacks
Item Armor Light, Moderate, Heavy Fortification Minor/Moderate/Major vs. critical (only)
Item Armor Reflecting Moderate vs. any spell + turn
Item Armor/Mantle Spell Resistance Moderate vs. any spell
Item Ring Counterspelling Major vs. any ONE spell
Item Ring Blinking Minor vs. any attack roll or AOE attack
Item Ring Spell Turning Moderate vs. any spell + turn
Item Rod Absorption Major vs. any spell
Item Cloak of Displacement Minor, Major Minor (Moderate) vs. any attack roll
Item Gloves of Arrow Snatching Minor vs. ranged attack roll
Item Ioun Stone Pale Lavender, Lavender, and Green Major vs. any spell (spell limit)
Item Scarab of Protection Moderate vs. any “necromancy” spell
Action Counterspelling Moderate vs. any ONE spell
Action Parry Moderate vs. any ONE melee action
What is interesting about these effects is that they stack layers upon layers of effects and abilities on top of one another. In general, they seem to build around the concept that you can either quickly and easily “avoid” an attack by alertly jumping out of the way, through distraction, through the effective tactical use of cover, or through the sheer ability to ignore/counter/dispel/turn an effect. I would argue that this would make an effective subsystem for the use of other feat/skill builds such as parrying melee attacks.
There is a building scale of relevance that involves the following options:
1) Action is not negated, but damage is avoided
2) Action is negated when damage is avoided with tactics (partial damage possible)
3) Action is negated when damage is avoided by ignoring
4) Action is negated when damage is countered or dispelled
5) Action is negated when damage is turned
There are levels that this effect can be applied:
Specific to the type of damage avoided:
Limited - one attack, one type of attack, one type of effect (school)
Broad - all spells, all ranged attacks, all melee attacks
Unlimited - all spells and ranged attacks, and melee attacks (does this exist?)
Specific to the effectiveness of damage avoided:
Minor
Moderate
Major
I think this new subsystem would streamline play, while accomplishing the goal of providing some PUNCH to those monster SR’s (1st ed style). Having said that, this would open up the “design” space for use within the SRD for a number of other interesting effects/abilities that could be used given consideration to skills/feats/class abilities.
I think the objective here is to add some "punch" to monster SR to give it that 1st edition feel. The second objective is to simplify the system, to make it less complex. Finally, I would argue that a quick review of the overall game system requires a quick review of balance considerations related to spellcasters.
So, to boil down these combat effects to their underlying broth, what you uncover is that in combat there are two ways to get to damage: overcome damage avoidance, and overcome damage reduction.
Damage avoidance is directly related in the game in three forms AC, SR, and an avoidance check. The levels of damage avoidance in the game include: full effect (hit), no effect (no hit).
Damage reduction prevents some or all of the damage dealt from an attack. The primary benefit of damage reduction is a saving throw, which typically reduces the damage effect in half. Beyond that, there can be damage reduction in one of many, many forms. This damage reduction creates an entire sub-system that is overly cumbersome.
As it relates to damage avoidance, AC is easily manipulated by modifiers that are in the player's control, including tactical considerations. SR is NOT available to players, and is often not easily manipulated by the player. I would say, given this consideration, it would make more sense to make damage avoidance VERY simple as a sub-system. Playing off of Hawken's original theory, I think damage avoidance should simply be:
Minor: DA 5 (6 or higher to succeed)
Moderate: DA 10 (11 or higher to succeed)
Major: DA 15 (16 or higher to succeed)
I would also recommend ret-conning all the related "avoidance" effects into this new, simpler subsystem. The damage avoidance rules that can allow a player to avoid damage or an effect from the SRD include:
Rogue/Monk/Ranger/Shadowdancer Evasion Moderate vs. any AoE attack
Rogue/Monk/Shadowdancer Improved Evasion Major vs. any AoE attack, half dam
Rogue/Shadowdancer Defensive Roll Moderate vs. any melee attack
Rogue/Shadowdancer Slippery Mind Moderate vs. any enchantment/charm
Monk's Diamond Body Moderate vs. spells
Monk's Deflect Arrows Minor(Moderate) vs. ranged attacks
Feat Deflect Arrows Minor vs. ranged attacks
Feat Mounted Combat Moderate vs. ONE melee attack
Cover (Full) Major vs. AoE attack
Concealment Minor (Moderate) vs. any attack roll
Spell Sanctuary Major vs. any attack roll (action redirect)
Spell Blur Minor vs. any attack roll
Spell Mirror Image Minor vs. any attack roll (AoE dispels)
Spell Invisibility Minor vs. any attack roll
Spell Entropic Shield Minor vs. any ranged attack roll
Spell Blink Minor vs. any attack roll or AoE attack
Spell Improved Invisibility Moderate vs. any attack roll
Spell Fire Shield, Cold Shield Major vs. fire/cold attack
Spell Spell Resistance Moderate vs. any spell
Spell Spell Turning Moderate vs. any spell + turn
Spell Word of Chaos, Shield of Law Moderate vs. any spell (multiple targets)
Spell Holy Aura, Unholy Aura Moderate vs. any spell (multiple targets)
Item Holy Sword Moderate vs. any spell
Item Armor of Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflecting Minor vs. ranged attacks
Item Armor Light, Moderate, Heavy Fortification Minor/Moderate/Major vs. critical (only)
Item Armor Reflecting Moderate vs. any spell + turn
Item Armor/Mantle Spell Resistance Moderate vs. any spell
Item Ring Counterspelling Major vs. any ONE spell
Item Ring Blinking Minor vs. any attack roll or AOE attack
Item Ring Spell Turning Moderate vs. any spell + turn
Item Rod Absorption Major vs. any spell
Item Cloak of Displacement Minor, Major Minor (Moderate) vs. any attack roll
Item Gloves of Arrow Snatching Minor vs. ranged attack roll
Item Ioun Stone Pale Lavender, Lavender, and Green Major vs. any spell (spell limit)
Item Scarab of Protection Moderate vs. any “necromancy” spell
Action Counterspelling Moderate vs. any ONE spell
Action Parry Moderate vs. any ONE melee action
What is interesting about these effects is that they stack layers upon layers of effects and abilities on top of one another. In general, they seem to build around the concept that you can either quickly and easily “avoid” an attack by alertly jumping out of the way, through distraction, through the effective tactical use of cover, or through the sheer ability to ignore/counter/dispel/turn an effect. I would argue that this would make an effective subsystem for the use of other feat/skill builds such as parrying melee attacks.
There is a building scale of relevance that involves the following options:
1) Action is not negated, but damage is avoided
2) Action is negated when damage is avoided with tactics (partial damage possible)
3) Action is negated when damage is avoided by ignoring
4) Action is negated when damage is countered or dispelled
5) Action is negated when damage is turned
There are levels that this effect can be applied:
Specific to the type of damage avoided:
Limited - one attack, one type of attack, one type of effect (school)
Broad - all spells, all ranged attacks, all melee attacks
Unlimited - all spells and ranged attacks, and melee attacks (does this exist?)
Specific to the effectiveness of damage avoided:
Minor
Moderate
Major
I think this new subsystem would streamline play, while accomplishing the goal of providing some PUNCH to those monster SR’s (1st ed style). Having said that, this would open up the “design” space for use within the SRD for a number of other interesting effects/abilities that could be used given consideration to skills/feats/class abilities.
Kerrick
First Post
Wow. I had to read this two or three times to get the gist of it, and I'm still not sure I got it all, but here goes.
Pretty much, yeah.
Something that I'm trying to do is reduce damage avoidance for everything except AC - evasion, for example, is 1/4 damage on a successful save, not NO damage (although - and I just thought of this - I could make it so that a save 10 or more over the DC means no damage). It removes some of binary, "trump card" effect that many people have noted in the high-level-play thread.
I've also streamlined that a bit. See [http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/monsters:special-abilities]here[/url].
Umm... yes it is. The spell resistance spell, the mantle of SR, robe of the archmagi, and probably a couple other things I can't think of right now. It's not as prevalent as with monsters, but they do have access to it.
Simplicity is good.
I get the general idea here, but how are you going to put it into practice? Are you talking about something like 4E, where you make an attack roll with an ability vs. a target number?
It could, yeah.
I added examples in bold so I could better illustrate your points and make sure we're all on the same page.
I'm kind of starting to follow this now, but some specific examples would be good.
Yeah, you've got it.
In practice, I think you'd still do a "second" roll vs. damage avoidance, which is a straight roll d20 roll, preferably with no modifiers. This way, you have the ability to avoid damage 25%, 50%, or 75% of the time. It's easy to remember (not hard to track), there's not a ton of modifiers to scale up and down.
The big disadvantage is it does require a second "attack" roll for most actions, but I think this could simplify combat by dropping a second d20 to overcome DA against most creatures at higher levels.
Examples of each type in my mind:
1) Sanctuary
2) Evasion, Deflect Arrows, Mounted Combat
3) Entropic Shield, Spell Resistance
4) Counterspell, Dispel Magic
5) Spell Turning
Monk with diamond body and improved evasion is affected by a fireball. These are both DA affects, so the better of the two kicks in, which is improved evasion, which is a major DA effect. The DM rolls a DA check and if a roll of 15 or less on a d20 (unmodified) occurs, then the monk successfully avoids all damage from the fireball. If the check is 16 -20, then the monk is affected.
Tordek has a shield of arrow deflecting (minor vs. ranged attack) is under assault by a team of ten archers, each with two attacks. Of his 20 attack rolls, 10 miss his Armor Class. His shield of arrow deflecting provides minor DA vs. ranged attacks. The DM rolls 10d20 to determine if any are deflected by the shield. On a check of 1 - 5, the arrow is deflected. On a check of 6 - 20, the arrow deals damage.
In practice, I think you'd still do a "second" roll vs. damage avoidance, which is a straight roll d20 roll, preferably with no modifiers. This way, you have the ability to avoid damage 25%, 50%, or 75% of the time. It's easy to remember (not hard to track), there's not a ton of modifiers to scale up and down.
The big disadvantage is it does require a second "attack" roll for most actions, but I think this could simplify combat by dropping a second d20 to overcome DA against most creatures at higher levels.
Examples of each type in my mind:
1) Sanctuary
2) Evasion, Deflect Arrows, Mounted Combat
3) Entropic Shield, Spell Resistance
4) Counterspell, Dispel Magic
5) Spell Turning
Monk with diamond body and improved evasion is affected by a fireball. These are both DA affects, so the better of the two kicks in, which is improved evasion, which is a major DA effect. The DM rolls a DA check and if a roll of 15 or less on a d20 (unmodified) occurs, then the monk successfully avoids all damage from the fireball. If the check is 16 -20, then the monk is affected.
Tordek has a shield of arrow deflecting (minor vs. ranged attack) is under assault by a team of ten archers, each with two attacks. Of his 20 attack rolls, 10 miss his Armor Class. His shield of arrow deflecting provides minor DA vs. ranged attacks. The DM rolls 10d20 to determine if any are deflected by the shield. On a check of 1 - 5, the arrow is deflected. On a check of 6 - 20, the arrow deals damage.
I kind of like where you're going with this--I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, so I'm not 100% sold--but it still has the problem of an extra roll or rolls (like in the Tordek example, 10 extra d20 rolls).
Instead, why not try to set it up so that the Damage Avoidance (DA) is based on the target's AC or saving throw.
So, for the Tordek example, he has the arrow deflection on his shield. I wouldn't necessarily call it a minor effect since it scales with the person's reflex save. For that particular enchantment, I suggest you factor in the base reflex save to the AC, like this:
Tordek has an AC of 20, his base reflex save is +4. His shield will deflect, 1/round, any missile that would hit him with an attack (total) of 20-24. If the attack is 25+, the missile hits normally.
The benefit is that the power kicks in automatically without an extra roll having to be made by either the attacker or the defender. Like the enchantment, it basically improves with the reflex mod of the target, so its value is not locked in and doesn't become obsolete as the character gains levels and faces progressively tougher attacks.
SR could work the same way.
Example: Kerrick the Drow Necromancer has a Ref save total of +10 and Moderate (50%) SR. He is subject to a Lightning Bolt spell. The save DC is 20. He is affected no matter what he rolls for his save, he either takes full damage (on an 11-19) or half damage (on a 20-30). The range of his SR is determined by his Ref save (+10) and a d20 roll (1-20).
His SR has a 50% chance of protecting him completely from the spell. So, the spread of the SR (50% of d20) is 10 points. Go "down" 5 points from his Refl (+10) plus 10 (half of d20; 50%), which is 15 and go "up" 10 points from there. This gives you an SR range of 15-24. So, when Kerrick rolls his saving throw, the following happens:
* On a result of 11-14, his SR fails AND his save fails--he takes full damage from a solid hit.
* On a 15-19 (his SR works and he takes no damage), though he would normally have failed his save--the lightning bolt is a "direct hit" but has no effect.
* On a 20-24 (his SR works and he takes no damage), though he would have made his save--the lightning bolts is an indirect hit, a glancing blow.
* On a 25-30 (his SR fails but his save is made and he takes half damage). The lightning is still an indirect hit, he avoids the worst of it, but it still powers through his SR.
That seems to cover the idea pretty well, providing for damage avoidance and SR without requiring additional rolls.
Other things could be tweaked to fall in place here. Evasion is basically SR, just against Reflex save effects. Treat it like moderate (50%) SR, meaning the roll would have to be an 11 or higher to work. If you used it in the above example, an 11-19 would mean that the evasion doesn't work since the save failed, he takes full damage (evasion does require a successful save). On a 20, he makes his save but the evasion does not work, he takes half damage. On a 21-30, he makes his save, but the evasion works and he takes no damage.
Improved Evasion could be treated like Major SR (75%). In the above example, it would protect 15 times out of 20 (75% of the time). So to figure the 75% spread. Start at the Reflex save (+10 or 10) and go "up" 3 points to 13. From 13 your spread extends 15 so the SR range is 13-28. So if Kerrick were hit by the same bolt but had Improved Evasion, his save would look like this:
* On an 11-12, he fails his save AND his Improved Evasion does NOT work. He is hit directly and takes full damage.
* On a 13-19, he fails his save BUT his IE works, so he takes half damage. An otherwise direct hit that was mostly avoided.
* On a 20-28, he makes his save AND his IE works, so he takes no damage--he completely avoids the Lightning Bolt.
* On a 29-30, he makes his save BUT his IE fails. He still has the benefit of Evasion so he only takes 1/2 of 1/2 damage, or 1/4 damage.
Instead, why not try to set it up so that the Damage Avoidance (DA) is based on the target's AC or saving throw.
So, for the Tordek example, he has the arrow deflection on his shield. I wouldn't necessarily call it a minor effect since it scales with the person's reflex save. For that particular enchantment, I suggest you factor in the base reflex save to the AC, like this:
Tordek has an AC of 20, his base reflex save is +4. His shield will deflect, 1/round, any missile that would hit him with an attack (total) of 20-24. If the attack is 25+, the missile hits normally.
The benefit is that the power kicks in automatically without an extra roll having to be made by either the attacker or the defender. Like the enchantment, it basically improves with the reflex mod of the target, so its value is not locked in and doesn't become obsolete as the character gains levels and faces progressively tougher attacks.
SR could work the same way.
Example: Kerrick the Drow Necromancer has a Ref save total of +10 and Moderate (50%) SR. He is subject to a Lightning Bolt spell. The save DC is 20. He is affected no matter what he rolls for his save, he either takes full damage (on an 11-19) or half damage (on a 20-30). The range of his SR is determined by his Ref save (+10) and a d20 roll (1-20).
His SR has a 50% chance of protecting him completely from the spell. So, the spread of the SR (50% of d20) is 10 points. Go "down" 5 points from his Refl (+10) plus 10 (half of d20; 50%), which is 15 and go "up" 10 points from there. This gives you an SR range of 15-24. So, when Kerrick rolls his saving throw, the following happens:
* On a result of 11-14, his SR fails AND his save fails--he takes full damage from a solid hit.
* On a 15-19 (his SR works and he takes no damage), though he would normally have failed his save--the lightning bolt is a "direct hit" but has no effect.
* On a 20-24 (his SR works and he takes no damage), though he would have made his save--the lightning bolts is an indirect hit, a glancing blow.
* On a 25-30 (his SR fails but his save is made and he takes half damage). The lightning is still an indirect hit, he avoids the worst of it, but it still powers through his SR.
That seems to cover the idea pretty well, providing for damage avoidance and SR without requiring additional rolls.
Other things could be tweaked to fall in place here. Evasion is basically SR, just against Reflex save effects. Treat it like moderate (50%) SR, meaning the roll would have to be an 11 or higher to work. If you used it in the above example, an 11-19 would mean that the evasion doesn't work since the save failed, he takes full damage (evasion does require a successful save). On a 20, he makes his save but the evasion does not work, he takes half damage. On a 21-30, he makes his save, but the evasion works and he takes no damage.
Improved Evasion could be treated like Major SR (75%). In the above example, it would protect 15 times out of 20 (75% of the time). So to figure the 75% spread. Start at the Reflex save (+10 or 10) and go "up" 3 points to 13. From 13 your spread extends 15 so the SR range is 13-28. So if Kerrick were hit by the same bolt but had Improved Evasion, his save would look like this:
* On an 11-12, he fails his save AND his Improved Evasion does NOT work. He is hit directly and takes full damage.
* On a 13-19, he fails his save BUT his IE works, so he takes half damage. An otherwise direct hit that was mostly avoided.
* On a 20-28, he makes his save AND his IE works, so he takes no damage--he completely avoids the Lightning Bolt.
* On a 29-30, he makes his save BUT his IE fails. He still has the benefit of Evasion so he only takes 1/2 of 1/2 damage, or 1/4 damage.
Kerrick
First Post
Okay, now I see where you're going. You're treating them like bonus types - they all overlap, so only the best one applies. Cool.
That's exactly what I was thinking - I already have that mechanic (degree of success/failure) set up for several other things, and it works very well.
I like that.
Woohoo, I'm a drow!
But seriously... I like the idea of SR being a "bonus to save" thing instead of an "all or nothing" effect. Combining SR and the save into one roll makes it a lot easier to handle.This part seems a little complicated, and I'm not totally sure I understand it. Kerrick has a +10 Ref save, and moderate SR (which, for the moment, we'll say gives him a +10 bonus to his save) for a total of +20. The spell DC is 20. If he fails the save by 6-10 or less, he takes full damage. If he fails by 5 or less, his SR kicks in and he takes no damage. If he succeeds by 0-5, he takes no damage. If he succeeds by 6 or more, he takes half damage. Did I get that right?
If so, here's what I think should occur: SR should be a buffer, like actually making a save. Thus:
Fail by 6+: Full damage
Fail by 1-5: Half damage (because of SR)
Succeed by 0-5: Half damage (because of SR)
Succeed by 6+: No damage.
I know it sounds kind of counterintuitive - you're saying that SR applies only over a short range - but it punishes characters who make really good saves.
I like that. I changed evasion so that it's 1/4 damage on a successful save, because it's another "all or nothing" effect, but scaled damage avoidance is MUCH better.
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Kerrick
First Post
I want to do a recap for the folks at home, since we've gone over a lot of things and it's gotten rather confusing. This is, I think, a summary of what we've agreed on so far:
SR is divided into four (five) levels: minor, moderate, major, full, (epic).
SR adds a bonus to saves.
A successful save results in a partial effect or no effect at all, depending on the degree of success.
SR is divided into four (five) levels: minor, moderate, major, full, (epic).
SR adds a bonus to saves.
A successful save results in a partial effect or no effect at all, depending on the degree of success.
