StormingMarcus
First Post
A heretical proposal: why don't make SR a bonus to saving throws against magical effects?
Minor +1, Moderate +2, Major +3, Full +4.
Minor +1, Moderate +2, Major +3, Full +4.
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Spell Resistance
- Thread starter Hawken
- Start date
Kerrick
First Post
Interesting idea, though I'd probably double the bonuses. It would make things a LOT simpler - cut down on the number of rolls, yet give some monsters a boost to resist magic. Additionally, you could ditch the SR entry in all spells, which would eliminate the stupidity of things like the energy orbs (Conjuration, but bypasses SR).
You'd have to change the rule for golems, since they're affected only by spells that bypass SR. I'd probably go with the 1E version - they're immune to ALL spells, except for those listed in the entry.
You'd have to change the rule for golems, since they're affected only by spells that bypass SR. I'd probably go with the 1E version - they're immune to ALL spells, except for those listed in the entry.
StormingMarcus
First Post
I think doubling the bonus would make them too high, but i'm not sure about it. I think golems should have a very big resistance, such a +15 saving throws bonus, but not any immunity (i hate immunities, they're not fun!)
Kerrick
First Post
After looking this over, I think you're right. See below.
On a side note: I would seriously consider changing spell saves to DC 10 + 1/2 caster level + spell level if you want to use this; DC 10 + spell level + mod is just not enough to counteract base save + bonus.
For example: let's say we've got a L20 wizard (Int 20) vs. a horned devil. Under the existing system, our wizard casting a wail of the banshee has a save DC of (10 + 9 + 5 =) 24. The devil's Fort save is +16, meaning he'll save 60% of the time - and that's if it somehow fails its SR 28 check (which it wins 40% of the time). I don't know how to add percentages like that together, so I couldn't say what his overall chance of success is.
If we keep the existing save DCs, but the new SR, the devil would have Fort +21 vs. DC 24, or an 85% chance of success. Under the new system, the wizard's save DC would be DC (10 + 10 + 9 =) 29. If we add +5 for full SR, the devil would still have a 60% chance of success; +10 (like I'm suggesting) would boost his success rate to 85%.
On a side note: I would seriously consider changing spell saves to DC 10 + 1/2 caster level + spell level if you want to use this; DC 10 + spell level + mod is just not enough to counteract base save + bonus.
For example: let's say we've got a L20 wizard (Int 20) vs. a horned devil. Under the existing system, our wizard casting a wail of the banshee has a save DC of (10 + 9 + 5 =) 24. The devil's Fort save is +16, meaning he'll save 60% of the time - and that's if it somehow fails its SR 28 check (which it wins 40% of the time). I don't know how to add percentages like that together, so I couldn't say what his overall chance of success is.
If we keep the existing save DCs, but the new SR, the devil would have Fort +21 vs. DC 24, or an 85% chance of success. Under the new system, the wizard's save DC would be DC (10 + 10 + 9 =) 29. If we add +5 for full SR, the devil would still have a 60% chance of success; +10 (like I'm suggesting) would boost his success rate to 85%.
Kerrick
First Post
For anyone who cares: I've decided to make SR a bonus to saves, as Marcus suggested. If the spell/effect doesn't allow a save, the creature gets a save at the normal DC, but without its SR bonus. I kept the list of spells/effects that are not subject to SR, as noted in the original entry, however - that way I can still say that golems are subject to effects that aren't affected by SR.
This change is more or less transparent - all spells will still have an SR entry, to signify whether or not the save bonus applies, but monsters will have a degree of SR listed instead of a numerical value. It wouldn't be hard to convert back and forth with a set of guidelines, though I'm not quite sure how to apply the different levels yet - either by HD or by existing SR. Maybe up to SR 15 = minor, 16-20 = moderate, 21-25 = major, and 26+ = full?
This change is more or less transparent - all spells will still have an SR entry, to signify whether or not the save bonus applies, but monsters will have a degree of SR listed instead of a numerical value. It wouldn't be hard to convert back and forth with a set of guidelines, though I'm not quite sure how to apply the different levels yet - either by HD or by existing SR. Maybe up to SR 15 = minor, 16-20 = moderate, 21-25 = major, and 26+ = full?
StormingMarcus
First Post
Good! I didn't think of spells without saves, but your solution seems fine...
I believe the overall chance of success is 77%. Multiply the chances of failure together and subtract from 100%.
I would divide the SR by 5 to calculate the save bonus (28/5 is still +5), but I would change the save DC to 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability modifier (not spell level modifier, that way there is only one DC to remember per caster). The devil then has a 85% chance of success vs. DC 25, closer to the original 77% success rate.
As far as allowing SR creatures to make saves vs. no save spells, what type of save will they make? Fort? Ref? Will?
In the case of the devil, he is supposed to have a flat 35% success rate vs. no save spells cast by the wizard. If we keep the DC at 25, the devil needs a flat modifier of +11 to keep the same rate. So we need a simple formula to transform SR 28 to a d20+11 "save" vs. no save spells. I would either divide the SR by 3 (+9 instead of +11, close enough and compensates for the higher success vs save spells) or just grant something like a 50% miss chance that incorporeal creatures already enjoy vs. spells.
StormingMarcus
First Post
Why don't make SR a bonus to all the defenses (AC, saves) against magic effects, and nothing more?
That way you boost it against spells that have a SR entry, but you don't add the necessity of one more roll (if a spell doesn't have SR, it still won't have).
That way you boost it against spells that have a SR entry, but you don't add the necessity of one more roll (if a spell doesn't have SR, it still won't have).
Kerrick
First Post
I'd probably go with divide by 3, like you mention below. I've found that dividing by 3 is generally the best way to go with anything in d20.
[/quote]but I would change the save DC to 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability modifier (not spell level modifier, that way there is only one DC to remember per caster).[/quote]
Nah. Then a caster would have the same DC for every spell - as someone on the PF boards pointed out, what's the point of casting hold monster if hold person has the same DC? Especially if SR no longer applies?
If we went with 28/3 = +9, the devil would have a +25 Fort save vs. the wizard's DC 24, or a 105% chance of success. Hmm... maybe that's not such a good idea after all.
If we divide by 5, it'd be +21, or an 85% chance of success. Vs. no-save spells (like power word: kill), his Fort save would be +16 vs. the DC 24, or 60%. Not bad for getting a free save.Whichever is most appropriate, I'd say. Most spells are pretty obvious - stuff like power word would be Fort; Abjuration, Conjuration, and Illusion spells still have no save, since they don't directly affect the target; Enchantment is Will (duh), and Evocation would be Reflex.
We could do that, but taking away the chance of a spell not working and not giving them anything in return (a free save, sans bonus) is nerfing it overly much, IMO. With a free save, there's still the chance of partial effects - half damage, sickness instead of nausea, reduced duration, etc.
StormingMarcus
First Post
I think it's simply another way of thinking. By keeping SR as you made it, you still think it as a barrier against every magical "attack".
By transforming SR in a mere bonus against defenses (maybe making it higher than yours), SR becomes a reinforcement of existing barriers: if the spell in question is not effectes by barriers (it doesn't target AC nor requires a save), it's because it should not be affected by barriers.
BTW, by making SR a bonus to saves or a "bonus save" you add another layer of bookkeping (i myself hate bookkeping, since my solution).
By transforming SR in a mere bonus against defenses (maybe making it higher than yours), SR becomes a reinforcement of existing barriers: if the spell in question is not effectes by barriers (it doesn't target AC nor requires a save), it's because it should not be affected by barriers.
BTW, by making SR a bonus to saves or a "bonus save" you add another layer of bookkeping (i myself hate bookkeping, since my solution).
