Spelljammer Spelljammer Shows Up In The Wild - Check Out The Tables of Contents

Copies of Spelljammer are starting to show up. Mike Long of Tribality is in receipt of the books and has tweeted some photos!

 

[Remathilis]

2e Ravenloft didn't ban paladins. It even let the DM know that domain lords were aware of exactly where every paladin in their realm was. The class wasn't banned, but it did carry a very short lifespan. I don't remember bards being banned, but then I've never liked bards, so I probably just tossed that out of my mind.

So I just pulled out my 2e Ravenloft to look at things closer. Paladins were in the character section, but had abilities altered and had the very probable short life span I mentioned. Priests got spells from their gods, but with some changes to some spells as noted in the book. Bards are not banned at all. It specifically mentions in the rogue section that any spells bards can cast are subject to the Ravenloft changes.

No classes were banned from that setting at all.

I don't know why you think power checks are gone. They're there, but in a different form. It takes the form of Dark Bargains and Dark Gifts. So it kept the powers checks and kept all classes being available. It got rid of the alterations to magic and didn't built in terror and horror checks, but the DMG has those, so they didn't need to put them into the setting. When all is said and done, not much actually changed.

I would expect the same of Dark Sun.

Domains of Dread (the 2e hardback book not the box set) had no native paladins, bards or druids. They could come from other lands via the Mists, but off limits to natives. Those that had lots of mechanical changes that weakened them.

Dragonlance, iirc, eventually removed druids and changed paladins to fit the knighthoods. They also didn't have monks. I'm not a Dragonlance expert though.

But by 3e, all those restrictions had been tossed aside by the 3pp books. Much like how 4e Dark Sun (and 3e Paizo Dragon mag) fit most of those options into the setting.

I would lay odds that a 4e Dark Sun will not remove a single PC option in the PHB, aside from the canonically dead races. They will find a way to make every PHB option work without modification, just some heavy refluffing. They will add options, claim some are rare, but not remove any of them. Ten official settings later, I think we can call that a pattern.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Domains of Dread (the 2e hardback book not the box set) had no native paladins, bards or druids. They could come from other lands via the Mists, but off limits to natives. Those that had lots of mechanical changes that weakened them.

Dragonlance, iirc, eventually removed druids and changed paladins to fit the knighthoods. They also didn't have monks. I'm not a Dragonlance expert though.

But by 3e, all those restrictions had been tossed aside by the 3pp books. Much like how 4e Dark Sun (and 3e Paizo Dragon mag) fit most of those options into the setting.

I would lay odds that a 4e Dark Sun will not remove a single PC option in the PHB, aside from the canonically dead races. They will find a way to make every PHB option work without modification, just some heavy refluffing. They will add options, claim some are rare, but not remove any of them. Ten official settings later, I think we can call that a pattern.

Exactly.

pre 3E-DL took away paladins (replaced by Knights of Solamnia), didn't have monks (2E didn't have them in core anyway), and pretty much soft-banned spellcasting classes that weren't clerics or wizards. 3rd edition allowed in all the classes from the PHB, aided by the default setting being post-War of Souls (so sorcerers and wizards could both exist and you didn't need to get your divine powers from gods)

So anyone dreaming of a Dark Sun that holds to 2E restrictions is barking up the wrong tree. That's not the 5E development philosophy. You might like what is produced. You might not. But it will be quite different to what was there before and will take more cues from 4E than 2E.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And people still think they're not afraid to restrict or penalize player choices and actions?

Domains of Dread (the 2e hardback book not the box set) had no native paladins, bards or druids. They could come from other lands via the Mists, but off limits to natives. Those that had lots of mechanical changes that weakened them.

Dragonlance, iirc, eventually removed druids and changed paladins to fit the knighthoods. They also didn't have monks. I'm not a Dragonlance expert though.

But by 3e, all those restrictions had been tossed aside by the 3pp books. Much like how 4e Dark Sun (and 3e Paizo Dragon mag) fit most of those options into the setting.

I would lay odds that a 4e Dark Sun will not remove a single PC option in the PHB, aside from the canonically dead races. They will find a way to make every PHB option work without modification, just some heavy refluffing. They will add options, claim some are rare, but not remove any of them. Ten official settings later, I think we can call that a pattern.

 

[Yaarel]

2e Dark Sun was an unusual setting, even in its own days. There is no one-to-one correspondence with 5e. To convert 2e Dark Sun into 5e Dark Sun requires approximation and translation.

There are two Dark Sun Setting Guides, the original setting in 1991 and the revised setting in 1995. 5e does best to only focus on these two publications, when deciding the mechanics and the flavors for 5e. When there is a contradiction between 1991 and 1995, 5e should probably incline toward 1991. From these two guides, decide whatever seems to work best in 5e ... for 5e.

COSMOLOGY
The only significant planes are:

• Material Plane.
• Elemental Planes: Earth, Water, Air, and Fire.
• Positive Material Plane and Negative Material Plane.

Probably, these should have been the only planes that exist. The confusion happens because the 1991 guide listed spells whose description mentions other planes. For example, the "Astral Spell". What astral plane? The gods of the celestial outer planes categorically dont exist. But the fiends of the infernal outer planes do exist! These kinds of contradictions. The 1995 guide and various supplements sometimes try reconcile such contradictions but end up causing more confusion.

The basic idea is:

• There is a material plane, namely a planet called Athas.
• All (!) divine magic is elemental.
• The four elements are: earth, water, air, and fire.
• The harmony of these four elements causes life and the "positive material plane".
• The disharmony of these four elements causes death and the "negative material plane".

• The Clerics draw from the positivity via sacred traditions, where each one revers one of the four elements.
• The Templars (Anti-Clerics) can manipulate positivity via a unique arcane event that unleashed negativity to rupture the four elements.

• The Clerics "worship the elemental planes".
• The Clerics have ways to "gate" directly into the elemental planes (without any ethereal plane).
• The Templars "worship the sorcerer kings".
• The Druids are also elemental, but in a local way, such as a specific oasis or rock formation.

The 2e Templar is a variant Cleric. However, to translate the class into 5e, there are good arguments for making it subclass of either the Cleric, the Paladin, or the Warlock. The Templar worships a sorcerer king. Compare the reallife "god king" traditions such as Pharaoh, Caesar, and Alexander the Great being understood as gods. The sorcerer kings can grant divine spells to Templars, by means of the arcane event whose negativity ruptured the elements. But the sorcerer kings cannot cast these divine spells themselves.

Each of the four elements is exactly a "cosmic power" as described in 5e in the sidebar in Xanathars Cleric class description. The 2e Dark Sun Cleric is strictly nontheistic. The term "worship" is an unfortunate misnomer. Instead use the term "revere". Reverence more clearly communicates a sacred tradition that isnt a theistic relationship. The elements themselves, the stuff that all material existence is made out, are holy. (It reminds me of reallife Daoism, where Yang and Yin are like two elements that all existence is made out of.)

The Druid is animistic (thus also use the term "revere"). It is elemental but in a local way, such as an oasis, rock formation, volcano, or other landscape feature where one or more elements conspicuously remind the observer of the elements. It equates a 5e Druid that also considers nature sacred.

The above is how the Dark Sun setting works. Any other planar cosmology is distracting − and confusing!

 

[Yaarel]

Divide the 5e Dark Sun classes into three sections. The first section is core Dark Sun and is the biggest. It completely reflavors the relevant 5e classes rewriting them from the ground up to match the Dark Sun setting. The second section is advice to DMs about certain 5e classes that dont exist in 2e Dark Sun, but clearly fit in, such as Barbarian and Psi Warrior. The third section is suggestions to DMs who wish to insert 5e options that dont fit into Dark Sun, such as a gnome character or a sea elf.



DARK SUN

2e Fighter → 5e Fighter: Champion
2e Gladiator →5e Fighter: Battlemaster
2e Ranger → 5e Ranger: Hunter (Tashas beast NPC warrior sidekick)

2e Thief → 5e Rogue: Thief
2e "Bard" → 5e Rogue: Assassin (Entertainer background)

2e Cleric → 5e Cleric: new elemental domains (Xanathars cosmic force)
2e Templar → 5e either Paladin, Warlock, or Cleric: new Templar subclass
2e Druid → 5e Druid: Land

2e Defiler → 5e Wizard (Defiler background feat with epic Sorcerer King)
2e Preserver → 5e Wizard (Preserver background feat with epic Avangion)
2e Illusionist → 5e Wizard: Illusion (Preserver or Defiler)
2e [Necromancer] → 5e Wizard: Necromancy (Defiler)

2e Psionicist → 5e new Psion class

 

[Faolyn]

2e Ravenloft didn't ban paladins. It even let the DM know that domain lords were aware of exactly where every paladin in their realm was. The class wasn't banned, but it did carry a very short lifespan. I don't remember bards being banned, but then I've never liked bards, so I probably just tossed that out of my mind.

So I just pulled out my 2e Ravenloft to look at things closer. Paladins were in the character section, but had abilities altered and had the very probable short life span I mentioned. Priests got spells from their gods, but with some changes to some spells as noted in the book. Bards are not banned at all. It specifically mentions in the rogue section that any spells bards can cast are subject to the Ravenloft changes.

No classes were banned from that setting at all.

Butting in. You're half-right. In the original boxed sets, paladins and bards where there. In Domains of Dread, put out in '97, the the tail end of 2e (it was copyright WotC) they replaced Paladins with Avengers and Bards with... well, let's just call them Vistani, shall we? They also introduced the Arcanist (wizard) and Anchorite (preist) classes. All of the classes--except for paladins and bards--were reprinted in this book. AFAICT, paladins and bards weren't banned, per se, but I think it was assumed (based on various forum posts and netzines that I've read) that paladins and bards could now only come from outside Ravenloft.

I don't know why you think power checks are gone. They're there, but in a different form. It takes the form of Dark Bargains and Dark Gifts. So it kept the powers checks and kept all classes being available. It got rid of the alterations to magic and didn't built in terror and horror checks, but the DMG has those, so they didn't need to put them into the setting. When all is said and done, not much actually changed.

It's not quite the same, though. Dark Bargains and Gifts are a deliberate player choice, while the Power Checks were a random DM punishment for PCs who performed evil acts. Players couldn't choose to fail a Powers check by RAW, although I'm sure some tables allowed it. Powers checks could also result in the PC becoming a Darklord, but I'm pretty sure that Dark Bargains and Gifts can't.

For myself, not much has changed, because I have the type of players who will right out say "hey, I think I want my character to turn evil" and then we'd discuss what that path would be. Or if the player didn't come out and say it, I know I'd be able to take them aside and say "hey, you're going to attract the Dark Power's attention if you continue. Is this a thing you want?" and then, again, figure it out from there together.

But I can see how for many tables, that sort of discussion may not happen.

 

[delericho]

Were I doing Dark Sun 5e at this point, my starting point would definitely be the 4e take on the setting. From there I'd formally rename Muls to Half-dwarves, and strongly downplay or even simply eliminate references to slavery (the Sorcerer Kings become monstrous tyrants, but people don't outright own other people). That takes you most of the way there.

Rules-wise, the big difficulties lie in defiling, the role of Clerics, and psionics.

For Clerics, I'd introduce Domains for any of the missing elements, and make those the only Domains in play in the setting. For psionics, I'd introduce a couple of Wild Talent feats (previously I would have used subraces, like Eberron's Dragonmarks, but since subraces are being removed...), use the psionic options from Tasha's, and call it a day - as a solution it sucks, but I don't have a better one.

For defiling, I'd go one of two ways. I'm actually inclined to remove the Wizard class from play, and tie defiling into the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points. However, if that won't fly, I'd probably suggest opening Sorcery Points up to all arcane casters in a very limited sense (maybe allowing them to use them only to gain additional spell slots?).

But as @Yaarel says, that would very much be a matter of approximation, and not necessarily a particularly good approximation. In fact, I might suggest that might be best done as a DM's Guild product similar to "The Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron" - a book that exists mostly to provide a foundation for them to then open up the setting on the Guild.

 

[Yaarel]

.

Were I doing Dark Sun 5e at this point, my starting point would definitely be the 4e take on the setting.

I need to reread the 4e Dark Version.

From there I'd formally rename Muls to Half-dwarves, and strongly downplay or even simply eliminate references to slavery (the Sorcerer Kings become monstrous tyrants, but people don't outright own other people). That takes you most of the way there.

I can live with slavery gone.

Rules-wise, the big difficulties lie in defiling, the role of Clerics, and psionics.

I find these three easy. Mostly.

Defiling:
Spelljammer present "Defile" as a trait that, within 10 feet radius, destroys plants and harms animals − via desiccation. Sounds workable enough to me. I especially like the 10-foot radius because the setting is more flavorful if the players actually see plants being destroyed in front their characters. The ssurran trait derives benefit from this vegetative destruction. But the Defilers that follow the sorcerer kings use "Defile" to boost their arcane spells. Backgrounds can offer various Dark Sun theme feats, including psionic Wild Talents, but also including one feat for Preservers who figured out a way to cast arcane spells from destroying life, and one feat for Defilers who figured out a way to use this destruction to augment the power of their arcane spells. The Defiler feat can be as simple as imposing a disadvantage to saving throws against arcane spells, if there are enough plants within 10 feet that can be destroyed.

Clerics:
The role of Clerics are already easy to do in 5e. There are four main sacred communicates, each one dedicated to one of the four elements: earth, water, air, and fire. These are an ancient way of life preexisting the Defilement. The sacred worldview reminds me of reallife Daoism where Yang and Yin somewhat resemble sacred elements that all existence is made out of. The goal of Daoism is the Dao, which is neither yang nor yin, but rather is the holistic, life-enfusing, harmony of yang and yin. In Dark Sun, the four elements are sacred elements that all material existence is made out of. The goal of the Dark Sun Clerics is the Positivity, which is neither of these for elements, but rather is the holistic, life-enfusing, harmony of all four elements. Toward this goal of harmony, the sacred way of life organizes into four sacred communities. Each community attunes themselves to one of these elements. So, the cooperation among these four communities − in a community-to-community relationship − reconnects all four elements to the harmonious Positivity.

5e Xanathars:
5e can already do this more abstract kind of sacred tradition. On page 18 of Xanathars Guide to Everything is the "cosmic power" Cleric.

"
SERVING A FORCE
In certain campaigns, a cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments. Talk with your DM about the divine options available in your campaign, whether they're cosmic forces. Whatever thing your cleric ends up serving, choose a Divine Domain that is appropriate for it, and if it doesn’t have a holy symbol, work with your DM to design one. The Cleric class features often refer to your deity. lf you are devoted to a cosmic force, your cleric features still work for you as written. Think of the references as references to the divine thing you serve that gives you your magic.

"

I really like this definition of the Cleric class as dedicated to a "cosmic force". it gets so many things right. Focusing on a "cosmic power" is more concrete and results in a fantasy sacred tradition that tracks with reallife nontheistic sacred traditions. Also, this is a "service". The sacred community are dedicating their lives in the service of some sacred value.

In the case of Dark Sun, the Clerics have dedicated their lives to literally "saving the world" by means of enfusing planet Athas with the Positivity. Toward this ultimate goal, the Clerics divide up into four sacred orders, so each can dedicate themselves to attuning one of the four elements. When these four attuned communities cooperate with each other constructively, they unleash the Positivity of harmony. The Positivity empowers the healing spells and other divine powers. In D&D terms, the Positivity is an abstract kind of divinity, the divine presence that exists in all things that exist.

I view the alignment of the Cleric sacred way of life as Neutral Good. It is self-evidently altruistic: save each other and the world. There is a Lawful component: collectivist group-orientation, community, order. But the goal is "harmony". Harmony is a celebration of differences. Each element is unique. The goal is to fully empower each individualistic elemental existence to optimal health: this individualism is the Chaotic component. By extension, the members of each sacred community seek to fully empower each other as individuals.

The ideology is Neutral Good, but individuals in a community can be any alignment. Probably community members are "Typically Neutral Good". But there might exist a place where a Lawful (Evil) adherent embraces an ideology that is extremistly oppressive against dissent. Oppositely, there might exist places where a Chaotic (Evil) adherent embraces an ideology that is predatorially exploitative and opportunistic, and manipulating the "system" toward self-serving ends. Both of these abuses are assaults against "harmony" of Positivity, but one can see how it might happen.

5e can do Dark Sun flavor right. Mechanically, the solution is obvious: four new Cleric domains, each one dedicated to one of the four elements. Each domain grants the necessary access to elemental spells, plus nice elemental class features.

In any case, Positivity is the "cosmic force" that is the "divinity". Each element is a "path" in service of Positivity.

Psionics:
Ok. Not so easy. But the only difficulty is getting psionic fans to find common ground. Heh, reallife D&D players need to find the "harmony" of the Positivity.

For what it is worth, I am in the psionic school of thought that says: Dark Sun without a Psion class cannot be Dark Sun. Psionics needs to mainstreaming using normal 5e spellcasting mechanics, at least to agree that avoids needing to learn a separate different redundant gaming engine system. The Psion class itself needs to be full caster with spell effects reaching all the way up to spell level 9. The best solution is the Psion uses the Warlock class as its chassis. It is normal mechanics, is a full caster, can convert into spell points in a balanced way, and perhaps most importantly, isnt a Wizard.

If psionic fans can find ways to work together. Psionics itself is easy to solve. I view the methodology is to have several "sacred communities", each one represents a prominent school of thought among the psionic fan base. One Psion is a full caster using normal spellcasting mechanics. But there also exists an other, separate, Psion that uses experimental mechanics − maybe something like a class that uses Fighter superiority plus Rogue skill checks to manifest psionic effects? Maybe call them (3e) Psion and (2e) Psionicist? Or one of these two Mystic.

For Clerics, I'd introduce Domains for any of the missing elements, and make those the only Domains in play in the setting.

Yeah. This might even be a consensus. Make four new Cleric domains.

For psionics, I'd introduce a couple of Wild Talent feats (previously I would have used subraces, like Eberron's Dragonmarks, but since subraces are being removed...), use the psionic options from Tasha's,

Use background feats for psionic "Wild Talents". This is probably a consensus.

and call it a day - as a solution it sucks, but I don't have a better one.

Personally, I need a Psion class for the feel of a Dark Sun setting.

For defiling, I'd go one of two ways. I'm actually inclined to remove the Wizard class from play, and tie defiling into the Sorcerer's Sorcery Points. However, if that won't fly.

Warlock mechanics are perfect.

Personally, I dislike Sorcerer mechanics. And find Sorcerer flavor awkward. And a psionic Sorcerer for Dark Sun would need an entirely new spell list anyway.

I'd probably suggest opening Sorcery Points up to all arcane casters in a very limited sense (maybe allowing them to use them only to gain additional spell slots?).

Converting Warlock spell slots into spell points works surprisingly well.

The Wizard and the Cleric are separate classes that use the same per-long-rest spellcasting chassis.

The Psion and the Warlock can be separate classes that use the same per-short-rest spellcasting chassis.

At first, I was against spell points because I need psionics to have normal mechanics. But when I looked into converting Warlock slots into spell points, it worked so well and so obviously, I now actually prefer Warlock spell points. Each spell level = 1 spell point. For example, spell level 3 Fireball costs 3 points to cast. Really easy. And the per-short-rest mechanics of the Warlock keeps the number of points small to help ensure gaming balance. The spell point pool equals Psion class level + 1.

But as @Yaarel says, that would very much be a matter of approximation, and not necessarily a particularly good approximation. In fact, I might suggest that might be best done as a DM's Guild product similar to "The Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron" - a book that exists mostly to provide a foundation for them to then open up the setting on the Guild.

Yeah. Once DMs Guild unlocks the Dark Sun setting, players can find whatever niche they need.

 

[delericho]

Defiling:
Backgrounds can offer various Dark Sun theme feats, including psionic Wild Talents, but also including one feat for Preservers who figured out a way to cast arcane spells from destroying life, and one feat for Defilers who figured out a way to use this destruction to augment the power of their arcane spells. The Defiler feat can be as simple as imposing a disadvantage to saving throws against arcane spells, if there are enough plants within 10 feet that can be destroyed.

This is the one bit of your post that really doesn't work for me. IMO, defiling needs to be an option available to all arcane casters at almost any time - it needs to be an ever-present temptation to take the easy way out at the cost of destroying the world. Gating it behind a feat (or background, or indeed and opt-in or opt-out mechanic) robs it of that value.

 

[grimslade]

WotC can release a Psion wizard subclass with a custom 'psionic' spell list and a few ribbon abilities. There will be no 'psionic system' for 5E from WotC.
I agree with @delericho Defiling should be a constant temptation, if not the default state of arcane magic. I hate the idea of automatic heightened spells for defiling. Advantage/disadvantage on spell saves is equally lackluster. Maybe a recharge proficiency bonus/day of a spell slot. Super tempting, but maybe too much for balance to handle. Again defiling should be very tempting, but it kills the world and marks you for the world to see. Maybe we look at Dark Gifts from Ravenloft?