D&D 5E Spells: the Good, the Bad, and the Downright Orcish Grandmother

Mephista

Adventurer
[MENTION=6857506]Harzel[/MENTION] Domo arigato gozaimasu.

So, I can see where most of those are considered bad in that list, but what's wrong with Jump? Or Weird- too small of an area, maybe? I presume the dislike of Color Spray is because Blind is a weaker condition than Sleep? Not sure about Melf's Acid Arrow, why that's considered poor? Just not enough damage?
[MENTION=23716]Gadget[/MENTION] - why do you dislike Crown of Madness. I know that I'm disappointed it doesn't scale with level (making it fall behind for a warlock), but other than that? Seems solid. And the Ray of Enfeeblement?
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Sorry, it comes up as #114 in my list, I was too lazy to quote or link, but Harzel quoted it.
Unfortunately, the numbering doesn't skip invisible posts, so each of us ends up with a personal number series because our ignore lists are all different.

This makes the thread post number worthless as a reference. Your post #114 could be my post #97 (if lots more people "ignore" me than you, or simply if a single poster I ignore has made a dozen posts) or #139 (if nobody ignores me).


Cheers

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 
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Otto's Irresistible Dance is actually great. No save so it bypasses legendary resistance for a minimum of one round, making it basically a free Action Surge for everyone in your party against whatever big solo monster you cast it on. It's one of the better 6th level spells.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
So, new list then.

Circle of Death
Analysis - damage is on par with a spell three levels lower (fireball); damage type different, but still second most common resistance type (fire/necrotic). However, damage radius is 60', for a total of 120', instead of fireball's 20' radius. Nine times larger. Is the lower damage offset by its far larger size? That's a lot of orcs you can kill in a single spell.

Ice Storm
Analysis - One level higher than fireball, but deals 2d8+4d6 damage, which is less than the 8d6 fireball. Double the firing range (300 v. 150), however, and difficult terrain. Both are 20' radius. The most notable thing about this spell is that the difficutl terrain effect effectively halves enemy speed, and at this range? Promises some more long range attacks before they get into attack-the-party range. Control v. Damage trade off. Is it a good balance? I can see that, if your game doesn't include such long range situations, it can be problematic.

Jump
Analysis- One minute, but a first level spell that lets you make difficult jumps in a dungeon crawl. Not sure why this is bad. Maybe too short of a duration? I've never seen where one mintue was too short to get past a challenge.

Melf's Acid Arrow
Analysis - 6d4 damage over two turns on a successful hit, 2d4 on a miss. Bit weaker than Scorching Ray, stronger than flaming sphere short term, but FS can have bonus action to roll around the field.

Mordenkainen's Sword
Analysis - Compared to Bigby's Hand, less damage, same duration/concentration, but two spell levels higher and less non-damage effects. Definitely bad. Oh, and slower too.

True Strike
Analysis - made for Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster, according to some. The big problem is that it requires set up to use. Very niche.

Weird
Anaysis - arguably on par with Mass Suggestion, scaring and damaging instead of charming and controlling. But lasts far shorter and far faster save. Mass Phantasmal Killer. I presume the reason this is listed is because its felt that its not damaging enough for level 9? Or too easy to resist with Wisdom? Too small of a radius?

Witchbolt
Analysis - discussed at length elsewhere

Color Spray
Analysis- same as sleep, basically, but Blinding instead. In cone shape (harder to hit with), and lasts one round... yeah, I can see the problems here. Far too niche.

Hex/Hunter Mark - my only problem with these is that they're Concentration on two gish classes with no way to successfully maintain Concentration without multi-classing or feats.

Crown of Madness - oh, missed the "use turn every turn" and "every turn roll to save." That's a problem. Suggestion is probably far better and can do much the same thing.

Ray of Enfeeblement - Concentration on this, along with save-every-turn. Compare to hold person; RoE can target non-people, but is it worth the loss of the turn? Could be good against Big Bads? I see this as a kind of "use for low level spell slots" type support spell. At least one round of half-damage is pretty nice.


Final Thoughts - I'm not sure about Ice Storm or Circle of Death being bad. They both seem to have their uses, especially when the former is a Druidic terrain control spell. Likewise, I'm not sure about Jump or Ray of Enfeeblement being bad either. The rest I can see having issues.
 

Barolo

First Post
Otto's Irresistible Dance is actually great. No save so it bypasses legendary resistance for a minimum of one round, making it basically a free Action Surge for everyone in your party against whatever big solo monster you cast it on. It's one of the better 6th level spells.

Precisely. If someone in your party acts between you and the solo, it is even better, as they have advantage to attack and the dancer has disadvantage on DEX saves. And it may even force the boss to burn one use of its legendary resistance just to shrug it off on its round to avoid a second action surge, making it more vulnerable for further magical attacks.

@Harzel Domo arigato gozaimasu.

So, I can see where most of those are considered bad in that list, but what's wrong with Jump? Or Weird- too small of an area, maybe? I presume the dislike of Color Spray is because Blind is a weaker condition than Sleep? Not sure about Melf's Acid Arrow, why that's considered poor? Just not enough damage?
@Gadget - why do you dislike Crown of Madness. I know that I'm disappointed it doesn't scale with level (making it fall behind for a warlock), but other than that? Seems solid. And the Ray of Enfeeblement?

Going at a random order:

Melf's acid arrow can in some cases perform better than scorching ray, for example against enemies with high AC, even when they have decent DEX saves, as it still does damage on a save. Of course it gets better against enemies with poor DEX saves to begin with, and the fact that it does acid damage instead of fire also helps improve its usability, as acid is less commonly resisted. But overall I would agree this spell lacks, as all it does is damage, and is not generally very efficient doing so. If it were just generally worse but capable of shinning when the right occasion arises (for instance, by doing damage over more turns, which would be specially nice against trolls) then maybe I would care about it.

I don't think color spray is outright useless, but I do think the circumstances I would be glad to have it instead of sleep at lower levels are very few and specific. Maybe letting it last for one minute, with each affected creature having a save at the end of their turn to overcome its effect would bring it on par with sleep? Or would that be too good?

I actually have a lot of fun with jump. For example, with STR 14 one can just move 10ft and jump up to 15ft high. If your DM goes along the idea that you can really time your action at any moment during your move (which I do), you can then cast lightning lure mid-air for some extra damage and plausibly a prone enemy.

Regarding crown of madness, it eats up your concentration, your action, and the target can save at the end of any turn. Moreover, even though you direct the subject's attacks, the spell does not state you can direct their movement, so it seems legal for the victim to just move away from its allies after the first round of combat, and considering that monsters commonly have weak ranged attacks, now this spell becomes just a poor man's hold person. It will generally be better than hold person only when facing more than one enemy, and you can target an enemy who has a better offensive capability than yourself, including ranged.

The weird spell, I don't know. The area, 30ft radius, is quite nice actually, more than twice the area of a fireball, for instance. I think I would like it better if it would target INT saves. Maybe not the initial save, as it causes the frightened condition, but at least the following ones, as they seem more a disbelieve save. Nonetheless, it is a 9th level spell, and it only imposes disadvantage on attacks and prevents your enemies from moving towards the source of their fear (which the spell does not actually position, so I guess is left for DM's adjudication). If the DM actually rules the affected enemies are too busy trying to save themselves from the source of their fear until they make their save, only bothering to interact with PCs if the given PC attacks them directly, then I think it can be quite useful, as in this case it would manage to disable some enemies as the party deals with others.
 
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Gadget

Adventurer
[MENTION=6786252]Mephista[/MENTION] - Crown of Madness is a bad spell because it is very niche, all the target has to do is move away from other allies and the spell is basically a one round duration if the first save is failed. Not to mention a save every round plus costing the caster their action every round can be quite restrictive. That being said, it is not as bad as others on the list, and can be useful in certain situations (force a dragon rider to attack his mount, or some such), I just find it overly finicky and restrictive while not really matching the fiction. Admittedly, this type of spell at this level is tricky to balance.

As for Ray of Enfeeblement, I just find the spell incredibly--pardon the pun--feeble. A ranged spell attack (which can miss), save every round, concentration using spell all for half damage on Strength (and only strength based) weapon attacks. Once again fairly niche, can be used against the occasional rampaging brute to mitigate damage, but at the very least should work against all weapon attacks, strength based or no, along with all strength and dex based ability checks. Should help with things like grappling and pinning an adversary, but does not really match the fiction.

And Phantasmal Killer - Basically a poor man's fear (single target and a level higher than the actual Fear spell that targets multiple victims) that requires a target to fail not one but two Saving Throws before taking a point of not-that-great-damage-for-a-fourth-level-spell. I can see the damage not being that great due to the fact that it is potentially every round until the save is made, but the spell should at least have the target take damage every round before the save to end. And even then I'm not sure it is worth it as a 4th level spell. Weird is basically a Mass Phantasmal Killer, and if it wasn't worth it at 4th level, it sure ain't worth it at 9th, area effect or not.

oh and about Mordenkainen's Sword, it is even worse than what you say, look at Spiritual Weapon, now look at Mordenkainen's Sword. Now back to Spiritual Weapon, cast using a sixth level slot, now back to Mordenkainen's Sword. See what I mean?

Jump - Kind of weak for even a first level spell, especially in this edition with strong cantrips. The real kicker is that it does not give you additional movement, you're still restricted by your movement speed. Sure, it could help you with that "difficult jump". It could also help you place in the local track meet. It should take a page from Expeditious Retreat and allow the recipient to jump x feet as a bonus action each turn. No calculating what your jump height and distance is according to your strength score, etc, just pure bionic man action every round.

True Strike - For martials, it only works on your first attack next turn. So even if you have Battle Magic or Quicken Spell, or something else that may let you cast this as a bonus action or attack as a bonus action, you still have to wait until next turn to benefit. And it is Concentration and therefore subject to disruption. For pure spell casters, many of the spells you want to use this to setup and make sure you hit with are also concentration and therefore cannot be used in conjunction with this spell.
 

Precisely. If someone in your party acts between you and the solo, it is even better, as they have advantage to attack and the dancer has disadvantage on DEX saves. And it may even force the boss to burn one use of its legendary resistance just to shrug it off on its round to avoid a second action surge, making it more vulnerable for further magical attacks.

Yes, advantage to attack can be an especially big deal for Necromancers and druids and anyone else relying on swarms of little creatures. A skeleton army will double its DPR against an ancient dragon if it can get advantage. For (say) fifty skeletons* with longbows, it's the difference between inflicting 195 damage on an AC 22 Ancient Red Dragon this turn or inflicting only 105; or if you're using it to cancel disadvantage from fear (Frightful Presence), it's the difference between inflicting 105 damage or only 15. That is a big deal.

* Normally you wouldn't have this many skeletons, but if you're going up against an ancient red, of course you will create a larger army than you otherwise would.

Note that Otto's has a short range and requires concentration, so to use it effectively against a dragon you probably need to couple it with Phantom Steed, to allow you to get out of breath weapon range after casting it. Otherwise the dragon can just breath on you to break the spell, thus losing no actions at all.
 
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Mephista

Adventurer
[MENTION=6786252]Mephista[/MENTION] - Crown of Madness
Huh. I misread the spell, I was thinking the mad one would move and attack. That is very strange.

As for Ray of Enfeeblement,
Fair 'nough.

And Phantasmal Killer
*nods*

oh and about Mordenkainen's Sword,
I don't believe in balancing against other classes' spells. Spells do not exist in a vaccuum, but are balanced against everything that a class can bring to bear at once. Spiritual Weapon is balanced against the need of melee clerics versus back row wizards.

I guess this is where I'm going to have to just disagree. The purpose of Jump, where it is, is to bypass, well, exploration / trap encounters and dangers. This allows you to bypass the danger at the cost of a spell slot and drain your resources, rather than allow you to trivally ignore it. That's kind of the purpose of most non-combat encounters. Or, the intent of spells when facing an encounter.
Something like that. Meanwhile, Expeditious Retreat is a, well, combat spell for lack of a better term. It allows kiting, or retreating, or otherwise escaping from enemies. Despite both being movement abilities, their purposes are completely different. I could see arguments for Jump needing some duration improvement for a rogue or someone doing second story work longer than a minute, but this and that are different matters.


True Strike
Yep. Could go for pages on just explaining why this spell is badly made. Its like Witch Bolt, but with less fans.
 

Stalker0

Legend
As far as Blade Ward is concerned, I think it has its uses, but the action cost to cast it is a limiting factor.

That why I mentioned the dungeon setting. When the party "gears up" to open the next door and go into the room of monstrous doom, the action cost of blade ward isn't really a cost. You cast it, everyone rushing in the next room...you have resistance for the first round.
 

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