D&D 5E Spells: the Good, the Bad, and the Downright Orcish Grandmother

[Gladius Legis]

I don't believe in balancing against other classes' spells. Spells do not exist in a vaccuum, but are balanced against everything that a class can bring to bear at once. Spiritual Weapon is balanced against the need of melee clerics versus back row wizards.

The fact Clerics get Spiritual Weapon as a 2nd-level spell, vs. Mordenkainen's Sword being a 7th-level spell, should be more than enough to address the needs of the two respective classes. SW at 2nd means not only do Clerics get that type of spell much earlier in their careers, but they'll be able to cast it a lot more often, and get rewarded for it since upcasting it increases its power. The Wizard will never be able to cast MS as often, nor would they have any incentive to upcast it since it doesn't increase in power with higher slots.

And then there's the fact that MS is simply very bad when compared to other 7th-level spells, and that's the real issue here.

EDIT: MS also sucks when put next to the functionally comparable Bigby's Hand, a 5th-level spell that IS on the Wizard list. And unlike MS scales when upcast! And is even Evocation just like MS!

 

[Gladius Legis]

Anyway, how to improve Mordenkainen's Sword? I'll shoot down one possibility: Removing Concentration is NOT recommended. That would just open up a huge can of worms stacking with a lot of spells.

I'm thinking the following:
- Increase damage to 5d10, and let it be upcast at +1d10 more damage per spell slot above 7th.
- Cast as a bonus action (thus allowing a cantrip the same turn).
- Increase range to 120 feet.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I've been thinking about True Strike. The idea as it is written in the PHB is about piercing a target's defenses, when really it should be about bending probability to allow an attack to sail true. Additionally, I think because the spell is limited to only work with your own attacks limits its potential. This is a cantrip that should be about party support, similar to Guidance. Here is one way the True Strike can be rewritten to make it more user friendly, especially for casters more inclined to support rather than attack directly:

True Strike
Divination cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: S
Duration: 1 round

You extend your hand, sensing the odds and probabilities and bending them in favor of you and your party. Choose yourself or one ally within range. Until the end of your next turn, all attacks made by the target of this cantrip are made at advantage.

Reasoning: First of all, this cantrip makes it much more valuable as a support cantrip. It has the potential to help yourself as well as allies. In addition, now this cantrip has the potential to scale like other cantrips, since it can affect multiple attacks as your party grows more powerful and gets more attack opportunities per round. Additionally, it can also work with attacks of opportunity. Suddenly True Strike turns from the worst cantrip, to one that is actually a reasonable strategic choice.

 

[S'mon]

Don't allow caltrops.

For a tiny object, our game does not allow coins or other really small objects (tiny does not necessarily mean "as small as possible"). We require rocks the size/weight of about a cannonball and carrying (let along getting them out of your backpack) requires effort (and time). Problem solved.


Even if you did not want to solve it that way and allow caltrops, rule that the player has to pull 8 caltrops out of his pouch one at a time with the Use an Object action. 8 rounds is a lot of setup.

PS. A Beholder's main eye typically prevents Animate Objects from working.

My animate objecting player is very good about this. She always looks around for decently hefty objects in the environment (eg a pile of fallen bricks) to animate. Nothing that looks abusive.

 

[schnee]

Regarding crown of madness, it eats up your concentration, your action, and the target can save at the end of any turn. Moreover, even though you direct the subject's attacks, the spell does not state you can direct their movement, so it seems legal for the victim to just move away from its allies after the first round of combat,

This is not in the letter or the spirit of the spell at all. It is for mind-controlling one of the opponents to temporarily turn them against the rest of their group. The victim of the spell is an ally, and allies do not bail out when their friends are in danger.

Interpreting the spell like that is shady. I'd even call it nonsensical. [EDIT: I was wrong. See my reply later in the thread.]

and considering that monsters commonly have weak ranged attacks, now this spell becomes just a poor man's hold person. It will generally be better than hold person only when facing more than one enemy, and you can target an enemy who has a better offensive capability than yourself, including ranged.

Yeah - here's what it is in game terms:

At the very worst, it's Hold Person. If the spellcaster needs to use their action on something else - like, say, healing a team member - then the enemy does nothing, to preserve the action economy.

Mechanically, the opponents have one less member attacking the party while the spell goes on. Just like a hold person. So far so good. Huge, in game terms, with the action economy.

Additionally, (and why it's a higher level spell), the opponents have to either attack or attempt to subdue a member of their own party - which means they're taking additional actions away from fighting the party on their own person. Or, they eat attacks and damage from one of their own, which is draining their hit points faster than expected. Or, the member of their party who is being attacked has to use the full defense action to try to wait it out - again, taking away actions that could be used against the party.

The whole thing is a way to use the spellcaster's action to soak at least 1 action from the enemies. If they're lucky, it also includes extra hit point damage, or soaking additional actions, or sowing chaos in their ranks.

So, seen that way, the entire thing is all about taking a several-round advantage in the action economy.

Adding an interpretation that a mind-controlled character who will literally attack their own team members is in such a state of control of themselves that they just walk away to prevent it from happening is bad faith metagaming. [EDIT: I was wrong. See my reply later in the thread.]

 

[Gadget]

I don't believe in balancing against other classes' spells. Spells do not exist in a vaccuum, but are balanced against everything that a class can bring to bear at once. Spiritual Weapon is balanced against the need of melee clerics versus back row wizards.

I'm not sure how 'melee clerics' have a lock on multi round bonus action single target Evocations, it's not like the spells are healing/banishing evil theme that are the cleric's niche. Presumably the argument is that the cleric will be in melee and therefore not need the concentration restraint on a similar spell five levels higher and not layer the spell with other spell effects? I've seen clerics with this spell, Spirit Guardians and swinging away in melee, though admittedly it is a multi-round set up. I'm not sure a wizard having this spell up, a concentration spell, and blasting away every round with a cantrip/non-concentration spell is all that bad for his one and only 7th level slot of the day. This too would be a multi-round set up. The problem with comparing the spell to Bigby's Hand is that the former spell has lots of utility outside of attack and damage, while MS does not; so MS comes out looking better than it should. At the very least, the spell should be able to do things like cancel out Wall of Force and other force effects, or cut through almost anything or have similar properties to a Sword of Sharpness or some such. Maybe attack twice if the caster spends and action?

I guess this is where I'm going to have to just disagree. The purpose of Jump, where it is, is to bypass, well, exploration / trap encounters and dangers. This allows you to bypass the danger at the cost of a spell slot and drain your resources, rather than allow you to trivally ignore it. That's kind of the purpose of most non-combat encounters. Or, the intent of spells when facing an encounter.
Something like that. Meanwhile, Expeditious Retreat is a, well, combat spell for lack of a better term. It allows kiting, or retreating, or otherwise escaping from enemies. Despite both being movement abilities, their purposes are completely different. I could see arguments for Jump needing some duration improvement for a rogue or someone doing second story work longer than a minute, but this and that are different matters.

I would say the purpose of Jump is to give the recipient cool jumping abilities for the cost of a spell slot. It costs the same spell slot as other first level spells it is competing against and, unless your campaign is some version of Donkey Kong, does not justify that cost. It does not need to proscribe use in or out of combat nor was there anything about the version I gave that invalidated your definition or was overpowered in any way. The current way just seems to finicky and not very cinematic.

 

[Barolo]

This is not in the letter or the spirit of the spell at all. It is for mind-controlling one of the opponents to temporarily turn them against the rest of their group. The victim of the spell is an ally, and allies do not bail out when their friends are in danger.

Interpreting the spell like that is shady. I'd even call it nonsensical.



Yeah - here's what it is in game terms:

At the very worst, it's Hold Person. If the spellcaster needs to use their action on something else - like, say, healing a team member - then the enemy does nothing, to preserve the action economy.

Mechanically, the opponents have one less member attacking the party while the spell goes on. Just like a hold person. So far so good. Huge, in game terms, with the action economy.

Additionally, (and why it's a higher level spell), the opponents have to either attack or attempt to subdue a member of their own party - which means they're taking additional actions away from fighting the party on their own person. Or, they eat attacks and damage from one of their own, which is draining their hit points faster than expected. Or, the member of their party who is being attacked has to use the full defense action to try to wait it out - again, taking away actions that could be used against the party.

The whole thing is a way to use the spellcaster's action to soak at least 1 action from the enemies. If they're lucky, it also includes extra hit point damage, or soaking additional actions, or sowing chaos in their ranks.

So, seen that way, the entire thing is all about taking a several-round advantage in the action economy.

Adding an interpretation that a mind-controlled character who will literally attack their own team members is in such a state of control of themselves that they just walk away to prevent it from happening is bad faith metagaming.

Agreed. Actually, now that I re-read it, I noticed it actually specifies the affected humanoid is supposed to make melee attacks, and I am not sure what should be the implications of that. Maybe it is there to allow its own allies to try to immobilize it as a way of effectively neutralizing it as a threat? Or to limit its actions so to simplify action resolution?

Just two doubts, maybe you can help me. First, when the spell mentions the charmed target must use its action before moving during its turn. How do you interpret this clause? Second, you pointed out the spell is "a higher level", higher than what? In my book, both crown of madness and hold person are listed as level 2.

 

[Mephista]

Anyway, how to improve Mordenkainen's Sword? I'll shoot down one possibility: Removing Concentration is NOT recommended. That would just open up a huge can of worms stacking with a lot of spells.

I'm thinking the following:
- Increase damage to 5d10, and let it be upcast at +1d10 more damage per spell slot above 7th.
- Cast as a bonus action (thus allowing a cantrip the same turn).
- Increase range to 120 feet.

My thoughts are to give it two attacks and to have reactions, as if a minion.

 

[Mephista]

So.... what about Witch Bolt, Color Spray, Melf's Acid Arrow, Ray of Enfeeblement and True Strike? Anyone have any ideas on how to improve those magics?

 

[schnee]

Agreed. Actually, now that I re-read it, I noticed it actually specifies the affected humanoid is supposed to make melee attacks, and I am not sure what should be the implications of that. Maybe it is there to allow its own allies to try to immobilize it as a way of effectively neutralizing it as a threat? Or to limit its actions so to simplify action resolution?

Just two doubts, maybe you can help me. First, when the spell mentions the charmed target must use its action before moving during its turn. How do you interpret this clause? Second, you pointed out the spell is "a higher level", higher than what? In my book, both crown of madness and hold person are listed as level 2.

Those are really good questions.

Your first paragraph, I think you're right. I'll add that I bet it's also a way to limit the power of the spell. Imagine if you could force a spellcaster to cast a Fireball at it's own feet...

Second paragraph, I - I have to walk back from what I said above about metagaming. I see the mechanic that lets the target walk away now. I feel like a jerk now.

I'd interpret that to mean only bother casting it at an enemy standing within melee reach of someone else. Since it's charmed, then the bit about 'acts as normal if there isn't anyone in melee range' still means it still can't just attack the spellcaster.

So, you have to be clever. Like, if your front line Fighter is being attacked by two enemies, use this on one of them, WHAM it hits it's buddy, then it a) tries to move away then WHAM free opportunity attack by your Fighter, or b) they both stay put and WHAM it attacks the other enemy again, or c) stays put and the other enemy moves away from it which WHAM another attack of opportunity by your Fighter but on the non-charmed enemy, etcetera.

I did a bit of reading, and I saw one clever soul uses it against spellcasters other than Clerics/Druids (ones with low WIS saves). It forces them to use a melee attack, which is better than them casting a spell. Put one of your party with a high AC next to them, and they can beat the tar out of that spellcaster for a round or two without a spell going off.

This spell is a lot like Flaming Sphere. Sounds a lot more promising than it is, but in the right situations can control the battlefield and cause cascading effects that make it worthwhile.

Third - yeah - dumb mistake - Hold Person is the same level. My bad.