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Spring break = finish writing full rules

BlackJaw

First Post
I've got 1 week off school, and unlike most college students I will not be spending it drunk (well other than last night) or working on massive papers/etc.

I will kill off a section of rules for the Cosmonomicon. I've been working on it off and on, although for the past 2 weeks I've been dealing with larger expensive projects (16mm film is really expensive by the foot. less then 2 minutes of footage costs about $100 to work with.)

Anyway, I've still got some work cut out for me, but I think I can finish it now.
 

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BlackJaw

First Post
This is long hard work in some places.

I'm going through the combat section of the Player's handbook and going point by point through it trying to identify any issues or ambiguiousness that might creep into the rules and set it strait.

In the Partial action section I specified that casting Haste on a pilot doesn't allow him to fly the vessel faster or more manuverable.

In the Saving Throws section note that Reflex saves are made by a vessel's pilot, and that special class features or feats of that pilot apply, Like Lightninig reflexes, and Evasion.

Under the section on magic actions I specified the restrictions that take place on spellcasting in vessel combat (you can't cast a fireball from the deck of a starship because there is no clear path between you and the enemy vessel. there is a wall or window there) also specified that line of sight works through cockpit windows etc (although unless your just targeting the enemy vessel, you also need to be able to see the ocupant(s) of the other vessel.

I've specified which character conditions from the DMG would keep a pilot from keeping control of a vessel. "A vessel is considered without a pilot if its current pilot is Cowering, Dazed, Dead, Dying, Grappled, Held, Helpless, Incapacitated, Incorporeal, Paralyzed, Petrified, Pinned, Stable, Stunned, or Unconscious"

etc.

It's taking a while but what I will have when I'm done is this:

1) The basic combat mechanic, as a full little couple page section. This will cover the basics. (more or less done)
2) A more in depth discusion of how that mechanic applies to all the increadibly diverse number of possiblities inherent in the d20 system. I'm currently on Injurey and Death. pg 127. I've got abotu 14 pages right now. I still need to do movement and special attacks/actions. Can a Space Kraken grapple a deep space scout? I'd say yes (and this is part of the reason I said vessels need STR scores!)
 

BlackJaw

First Post
Here are a list of stunts I've just written up:

For each move-equivalent actions a pilot makes piloting his vessel, he can also make a single Stunt. Stunts require Pilot skill checks. Stunts are listed bellow:
Hard Turn: You can attempt to turn an extra amount that does not count against the turns normally associated with your vessel’s maneuverability, and is not limited in degree by your vessel’s maneuverability. The Pilot check for this turn is determined by how much you wish to turn.
45o = DC 5
90o = DC 10
135o = DC 15
180o = DC 20
225o = DC 25
270o = DC 30
315o = DC 35
360o = DC 40
If a pilot fails his pilot check on this stunt, the vessel does not turn as much a intended. If the DC is 35, and the pilot only gets a 30, the vessel turns 270o instead of 315o. A natural roll of 20 does not mean automatic success, although a natural roll of 1 will result in loss of control.
Shake Lose: A pilot can attempt to create a shaky ride in order to knock over people on or in the vessel. Anyone or thing not secured on the vessel must make a Balance check to maintain their footing or a Climb check to retain their grip, depending on the situation. This an opposed skill check between the pilot and everyone on board. The pilot makes his roll, and everyone must beat that roll or fall down or off the vessel. For example, I pilot wants to shake a gremlin off his wing. He makes a makes a Shake Lose Stunt and rolls a total of 36 after modifiers. The Gremlin must now make a Balance check against DC 36 or be knocked from the wing. If instead of a gremlin on the wing, it had been a NPC secured with a rope and grappling hook, the check would have been a climb check, with bonuses for the hook and rope. There is no special penalty for failing to shake lose anything or anyone on a vessel.
Landing: Landing is the first stunt all new pilot are often taught. While flying a vessel already in flight is easy enough, genuine skill is required to land it safely. The base DC for this piloting check is DC 10, although the DC can be much higher if there are bad conditions such as fog, wind, rain, in proper landing zone, or poor lighting. Outside of combat, a pilot can take 10, but not 20, on this check, and this is often the reason that only experienced pilots attempt to land larger vessels, and why many airports would prefer to turn vessels away in bad conditions. If the pilot check fails, then the vessel crashes during the attempt. The distance of the fall is considered equal to the distance moved by the vessel during that round, and most pilots chose to be moving only the minimum speed necessary when attempting to land in order to avoid damaging their vessel should the landing be “rough.” Vessels rarely fall very far during such “crash,” and most often aren’t damaged much. In order to land, a Vessel requires enough space, which is equal to it’s minimum movement distance. That is 0 for hovering vehicles.
Complex Stunt: An impressive maneuver of piloting skill, such as a loop, barrel roll, or spin is worked into the vessel’s movement. Besides looking impressive, it also has the benefit of making your difficult to target. The vessel gains a Dodge bonus to AC based on the complexity of the stunt. The DC of the pilot check is 5 + 5 for each Dodge bonus, so a +1 is DC 10, and +5 is DC 35. The maximum bonus possible is +5 DC 40. Also, successfully pulling a Complex Stunt, even an easy one at DC 5, is enough to require reevaluation of targeting locks on the vessel with the vessel’s new improved dodge bonus. The pilot must define the complexity of the stunt before trying it. A failed check results in loss of control.
Break a Grapple: A vessel that has been caught in a grapple effect, such as a tractor beam, grappling cable, or Kraken tentacle can attempt to break away by using a stunt. To escape a grapple, add any bonus from the Vessel’s STR score to the pilot check. The DC to beat is determined by the grappler as normal. You must beat all the grapples on you (such as multiple tractor beams) in a single roll in order to break out of a mass grapple. A failed pilot check has no special penalties beyond remaining grappled.
Regain Control: Regaining control of a vessel is a special stunt that can only be used if you are in a pilot station or seat of a vessel currently out of control. The DC to regain control is the same as the one that previously was failed. So if you tried to pull a Complex Stunt with a DC 40, you must beat DC 40 to regain control. Every time some one attempts to regain control, and fails, the DC to beat is lowered by one. You officially become a vessel’s pilot if you regain control.
Taking Off: To take off from a landing, a vessel must be fully powered, and have sufficient space (equal to a vessel’s minimum movement rate). The DC for a take off is 5, although poor conditions would increase this DC. You can take 10 on this check. A failed Take Off check results in the vessel remaining on the ground despite moving its minimum speed down the runway. That would be 0 for hovering vehicles. On a natural 1, the vehicle is considered crashed and takes falling damage equal to the distance it has traveled, which is again 0 for hovering vehicles.


PS: I don't know why you would want to make a Hard Turn for more then 180o, but some one might want to for some unknow reason (I guess if your gunner had a readied action to shoot as soon as the enemy following was in his firing arc, you could turn 360o, he'd get his shot, and you still continue forward)
 

BlackJaw

First Post
I'm currently cleaning my 30 page air combat rules section. I suspect it will grow to be about 35 pages as I do this, but that chapter (it would be chapter 2) will be finished, as in a first draft.

I've got most things considered in it, including mounted combat on flying creatures, and monsters in air combat (Dragon VS Fighter Jet)

I hope to upload it in the next 2 days.
 

Wyvern

Explorer
RE: full rules

Great stuff! I like your stunt rules; they're simple, elegant and flexible. I could never have thought of the "Shake Loose" or "Complex Stunt" rules myself. Just a few questions/quibbles:

- Since the minimum speed for hovering vehicles is 0, how do you determine the amount of damage they take on a botched attempt to take off or land?

- Is there any way to make a "hard landing" that's not as damaging as a full-out crash? 1d6 points of damage per 10 ft seems rather harsh considering how fast some vehicles fly. Is it supposed to be mitigated by the fact that they have lots of hit points? Or is the falling distance determined by the grid size instead of being measured in fixed 10-ft increments? I think this is the best solution; that way a supersonic fighter jet would not be completely wiped out by a single rough landing, because it would be on a 500-ft grid. This could become problematic when running "mixed" battles, though. A vessel which normally operates on a 500-ft grid would be at a disadvantage when in combat with vessels that use a 30-ft grid (though only if it tried to land).

- I would stipulate that rolling a natural 1 while taking off only results in a crash if the Pilot check is a failure. Otherwise, even the best pilot in the world is going to crash once out of every twenty flights. Although this would mean that under normal conditions, it's impossible for someone with even basic pilot training (4 ranks) to crash while taking off, I think it's better than the alternative. On the flipside, I'd also suggest that a natural 1 on a landing attempt results in extra damage if the pilot fails his check.

- Could the DC of a landing check be decreased if the pilot has more room to land in? This is logical, but I'm not sure how you'd reconcile it with the rules as they stand.

- It doesn't make sense to me that the maneuverability of a vessel has no effect on the "Hard Turn" stunt. I realize that this is partly offset by the fact that more maneuverable vessels can turn more "for free", but it still doesn't seem quite right. I'd suggest a simple solution: add +5 to the DC for every maneuverability class below Perfect (you might want to change the base DCs if you do this).

Wyvern
 

BlackJaw

First Post
- Since the minimum speed for hovering vehicles is 0, how do you determine the amount of damage they take on a botched attempt to take off or land?

- Is there any way to make a "hard landing" that's not as damaging as a full-out crash? 1d6 points of damage per 10 ft seems rather harsh considering how fast some vehicles fly. Is it supposed to be mitigated by the fact that they have lots of hit points? Or is the falling distance determined by the grid size instead of being measured in fixed 10-ft increments? I think this is the best solution; that way a supersonic fighter jet would not be completely wiped out by a single rough landing, because it would be on a 500-ft grid. This could become problematic when running "mixed" battles, though. A vessel which normally operates on a 500-ft grid would be at a disadvantage when in combat with vessels that use a 30-ft grid (though only if it tried to land).
I've been reworking my crashing a ramming rules because they arn't clean enough for me. By connection, my failed landing and take off stunts need to be reworked.

- I would stipulate that rolling a natural 1 while taking off only results in a crash if the Pilot check is a failure. Otherwise, even the best pilot in the world is going to crash once out of every twenty flights. Although this would mean that under normal conditions, it's impossible for someone with even basic pilot training (4 ranks) to crash while taking off, I think it's better than the alternative. On the flipside, I'd also suggest that a natural 1 on a landing attempt results in extra damage if the pilot fails his check.
I've changed this from when I posted it, and I am reworking the crashing system. I orginaly wrote it knowing that most vessel can easily survive the damage from a rough landing. Still not clean enought for me though.

- Could the DC of a landing check be decreased if the pilot has more room to land in? This is logical, but I'm not sure how you'd reconcile it with the rules as they stand.
Sure, a DM could increase or decrease the base DC based on conditions like wind, rain, shorter or longer feilds. DM's discresion.

- It doesn't make sense to me that the maneuverability of a vessel has no effect on the "Hard Turn" stunt. I realize that this is partly offset by the fact that more maneuverable vessels can turn more "for free", but it still doesn't seem quite right. I'd suggest a simple solution: add +5 to the DC for every maneuverability class below Perfect (you might want to change the base DCs if you do this).
I didn't realy bother with this because size modifiers already apply through the handling modifier. Size will affect manuveriblity during ship construction. A Collossal Vessel will not be able to be Perfect or Good Manuveriblity.
 
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Wyvern

Explorer
BlackJaw said:
- Could the DC of a landing check be decreased if the pilot has more room to land in? This is logical, but I'm not sure how you'd reconcile it with the rules as they stand.
Sure, a DM could increase or decrease the base DC based on conditions like wind, rain, shorter or longer feilds. DM's discresion.
I guess I wasn't very clear on what I was asking. My concern is that, since by your system it's to the pilot's advantage to minimize his speed, the distance traveled while landing will be the same no matter how long the runway is. Therefore the length of the runway has no impact on the landing. Sure, you could represent this by adding a bonus to the Pilot checks for longer runways, but this seems rather artificial if the actual distance traveled doesn't change.

How's this for a solution: for each additional round the pilot spends landing, he gains a bonus to the landing check, provided the runway is long enough to handle the full movement of the vessel over the course of that many rounds. The damage from a failed landing check is also reduced by a certain proportion for every extra round taken. The pilot must declare how many rounds he is taking *before* the check is made, since if a crash does occur it will usually be at the beginning of the landing (although you could also roll dice to see how far the vessel gets, if so desired). If the runway is too short, the vessel crashes automatically at the end of it.

This is only an option for vessels traveling at a speed better than 0, but perhaps those with a speed of 0 should get a flat bonus to landing checks to represent the fact that it's much easier to set down a hovering vessel than to land while moving rapidly forward.

- It doesn't make sense to me that the maneuverability of a vessel has no effect on the "Hard Turn" stunt. I realize that this is partly offset by the fact that more maneuverable vessels can turn more "for free", but it still doesn't seem quite right. I'd suggest a simple solution: add +5 to the DC for every maneuverability class below Perfect (you might want to change the base DCs if you do this).
I didn't realy bother with this because size modifiers already apply through the handling modifier. Size will affect manuveriblity during ship construction. A Collossal Vessel will not be able to be Perfect or Good Manuveriblity.
Again, I don't think you quite understand what I was getting at. My point was that, all else being equal (including size), a vessel with a higher maneuverability should not only be able to turn more *without* making a check, but should have an easier time making *additional* turns of any given magnitude.

As for the handling modifier, I thought we'd agreed that it would be used to represent the difficultly of operating a vessel's controls, independent of size or maneuverability. If you want to change it, that's okay, as long as we're both clear on what the handling modifier means.

Wyvern
 

BlackJaw

First Post
Glad I spotted these posts now. I was starting to finish up a simple draft of the cosmo including a fairly complete rules section! (woo hoo!)

thanks for points these out!

Ok, so should just about all stunts gain a bonus/penalty based on vessel manuverablity ratting? Should it be increasing bonuses, decreasing penalty, or should average be 0, and it increases out from there?

And yes, handling is suposed to be just the ease of the controls.

Your landing system (and by extention take off) is not bad. I'm not sure about hover vehicles getting a flat bonus though. I'll trying working it all in before I post the first draft.
 

BlackJaw

First Post
I've included your ideas. Some stunts that involve turning have a turn modifier, just a little one though, but its based on manuvering, and while the modifiers are small, if you compare a vessel with a bad modifier to one with a good modifier, the difrence is larger.

I also wrote in the landing and take-off runway distance idea. It tops out at +20 bonuses if you send 5 rounds.

Finaly I posted the whole thing. Take a look, tell me what I need to fix.
 

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