Star Wars Saga, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Remathilis]

I generally love everything, but a few things bug me:

1.) There is no way to expand your class skills without multiclassing.

2.) Very skimpy on the sample stuff. Give me 50 more pages with a few more ships, force powers, equipment, sample NPCs, etc.

3.) The map in the middle of the book. Grrr

Otherwise, I'm liking a lot of it.

 

[hong]

I generally love everything, but a few things bug me:

1.) There is no way to expand your class skills without multiclassing.

Well, that does kinda make sense in the context of d20. After all, even in D&D there's no way to expand your class skills without multiclassing (except for a couple of obscure feats in splats).

 

[Twowolves]

You're not regaining the resource. Once an action point is expended, it's gone. In that respect, an action point is (as Unearthed Arcana points) like a magic device with one charge.

IMO, they should be more like Hero Points in M&M, something that's level based and reset at each gaming session. But, that's just me.

I guess it's a matter of opinion as to whether action points are so critical that a character is entitled to almost always have one, or whether it just provides a boost for a character that already has an effective array of talents, skills, and feats (and in D&D's case, spells and magic items).

Well, you can immediately burn one to prevent death, even if it means breaking the "one force point per turn" rule, so I'd say they are pretty darn critical!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Considering the probably 10 minutes per session I've seen blown by players counting out that accursed 1-2-1-2 shuffle, I rejoice at it's demise. It's not that the math is hard, it's that remembering where you're at when moving diagonally, then moving straight, then diagonally again seems to cause no end of confusion.

The benefits of the square book size have been extensively covered elsewhere. To whit: less intimidating (and less 'RPGish') for newbies and bookstores, VASTLY easier to hold, stays open better, easier to transport, would fit in a boxed game better. BTW, it does not, in point of fact, result in less content per page even if you ignore the smaller typeface.

As for Epic rules - d20 Modern didn't have them, D&D 3.0 didn't have them, and d20 Call of Cthulhu didn't have them. They're neither difficult to figure out (since unlike D&D, you're not dealing with a game-changing power curve every 2-4 levels pre-epic) nor necessary to cover anything in the source material (or much of anything short of Dragonball Z). In early statting-out tests, I was able to accurately represent characters at 20th level using the unmodified Saga rules that required either 21st-30th level gestalt characters or 31st+ level non-gestalt characters in D&D or d20 Modern.

I'll admit: the sample sections seem incredibly skimpy. It doesn't matter much to me because I want to use these vastly upgraded rules for other settings, but it's definitely a crimp in using the book to run an actual Star Wars campaign. The ships are the worst offenders (only ONE capital ship statted, and no space station?), but the sample characters are fairly sparse, too. Going just by the movies, I'd say Darth Maul or Count Dooku would have been considerably worth statting than General Greivous, for example; also, Jabba the Hutt.

The equipment chapter, on the other hand, I think is nicely streamlined. The fiddly approach of d20 Modern (or old school D&D with its racks of polearms) seems like it would be wasted on a game that's supposed to be fast and fun in play, not technical.

My only real complaint is that the book is just RIDDLED with typos. I normally don't mind these, but the overall package is so slick (so much more so than most RPG products), I think it reflects worse on it to have sloppy editing.

 

[Ranger REG]

One bad so far - ALL diagonal movement costs double; they cut out the "1-2-1-2" thing, which makes for some REALLY odd square movement zones.

Probably because it's easier to remember "2-2-2-2" over "1-2-1-2" that plagued the D&D diagonal movement rules by most confuzzled new fans.

It is also one of the strong arguments by pro-hex gamers.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I love Star Wars and I love roleplaying, but to be blunt, I already have two editions of the Star Wars D20 RPG and I don't feel like I need another one. If I dig it out again any time soon, I'm far more likely to convert it over to True20 anyway. My feeling is that regardless of the mechanics changes in this edition, it's still just too much too soon. I support Wizards and want to see them do well with all their RPG lines, but I just don't feel like investing in yet another edition of D20 Star Wars. The last version works well enough for my purposes.

 

[danzig138]

seems designed to obscure the fact that I paid 40 bucks for a lot less content then the previous rulebook by artificially inflating the page count.

You've said this now in a couple of threads. Have you done a word count? A side-by-side comparison of the text from the different editions? Accounting for layout? I'm curious to know how you came to this conclusion of less content, since I haven't seen the book for myself, probably won't for a while, and certainly can't afford to buy it anytime soon.

Also, no substantial setting info on KOTOR, or SW Legacy? Far more interesting settings in my opinion than the overdone Rebellion Era. And Lucas' butchering of the prequels has soured me on the Clone Wars era. I hope to see sourcebooks for those settings soon.

If I was purchasing a SW core rules book, I'd be annoyed at the artifically inflated page count that it would have by haivng information about stuff that I don't consider to be Star Wars - the stuff outside the movies. Knights of the Old Rebublic? Save it for an expansion wher it can be done justice without impacting my core book that should deal only with the movies.

And I loved the prequels. So with your. . . opinion, we can't really have a civil conversation, you heathen.

No explanation on leveling beyond 20.

Now I don't have any of the expansion books for the previous d20 versions of SW, but I sure don't remember section on post-20th level gaming in the core books. Did I miss something? Again, this seems like something that should be in a supplement.

Something like force or action points should replenish every session the way Spycraft does it.

I disagree. Having them replenish every session (and man, do I hate by-session things, almost as much as duration-by-scene or per-encounter replenishment) makes them less important, and less special IMO. But I also think that things like action/force/hero points should be used for very special situations, and not to make things more cinematic, which is what by-session does IMO. At the same time, I have absolutely no problem with a little sidebar that explains these differences between refreshing points, and gone-for-good points and how it impacts the game, and both are good, just for different groups.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

I love the cover, and I like the square shape. However, I don't understand why people are saying it lays flat easier. It doesn't. For an example of an RPG book that does a great job laying down flat see the third edition GURPS basic book.

While I like the innovative shape, it's obvious that whoever did the layout wasn't really prepared for the change. There is a little less room per page to use (about 1" or 1 1/2" overall) and it really stands out.

I don't mind the recycled art, as I liked the art from the previous editions. The new art looks pretty good as well -- it's just marred by the strange sense of lump white space caused by the tight page constraints with normal margins.

As for the rules: love the changes. I guess I'll view this as an unofficial update to d20 Modern. I like the simplified skills and the damage threshold system. The talent tree/feat system works well but it isn't very interesting -- it might as well be a level-less system, but I understand why they do it this way.

 

[JediSoth]

For what it's worth, according to Amazon.com the Revised Core Rules is 384 pages with 223,318 words. The SAGA edition is 288 pages. They don't have a word count yet. With a smaller page size, I doubt they could lower the font size enough to squeeze more words in nearly 100 fewer pages.

Obviously, word count is not necessarily indicative of quality.

I was pretty hyped up about the SAGA edition when I read the previews, but some of the discussion here has put me off of it. I saw the book in my FLGS and I have to say, I do not like the square shape (nor the small size) at all. Maybe it's new, maybe it's the way of the future, but it does not appeal to my aesthetically.

I guess part of my problem now is having seen the $40 cover price. It took considerable time to get most of the books of the previous edition because I though they were overpriced. I don't remember the WEG version being that much more expensive than other RPGs.

JediSoth

 

[Nebulous]

But then to add insult to injury, not only are you forced to level to regain these critical resources, but you hit a wall at level 20. Absolutely no discussion of level 20 play and its affect on force and destiny points, nor rules on advancing beyond 20 are offered. So once you spend all your Force and Destiny points a level 20 character is just permanently screwed barring GM houserules? This is a huge flaw in the game in my opinion.

I understand your point of view, but i have to argue that you have no need to go over level 20 in Star Wars. This is not Epic DnD. If you can't play the kind of game you want between levels 1-20, perhaps it's not the right kind of game for you. In addition, it would be very easy to adjudicate some Epic Level rules by the GM if you really wanted to. Few other d20 books have epic level info either. I'm not being smarmy at all, just stating my thoughts.

I'm sure I'll dig up more as I read it more. In the end, it seems like they stripped out a lot of detail, detail I'm sure will be slowly added back in as new suppliments are released.

Yeah, this is exactly what will happen. I suppose it will be OK if the new sourcebooks are as high quality as this one, but it would have been nice if it were a little fatter.