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Stat that movie!

tsadkiel

Legend
Scupper said:
Displaying just how much time I have on my hands:
The Princess Bride

The Princess Bride works much better with Swashbuckling Adventures:

Westley - I'd give hima level of Wanderer (which is basically a souped up commoner/expert) to represent the farmboy aspect, then some Pirate and Swashbuckler levels. I don't think he's anywhere near 19th level; he may even be a level or two below Inigo, but with better stats. Feats include Poison Immunity (iocane powder), and the parry tree. Probably Tagging as well.

Humperdinck - Thean Ranger (no spellcasting), mixed with some Noble. Leadership is obviously his most important feat.

Inigo Montoya - pure Swashbuckler. Has the parry feat chain, along with the weapon expert/mastery feats. All combat feats, mind you - Inigo's player is a dedicated min-maxer, he just didn't get the godlike stat rolls that Westley's player did.

Vizzini - Expert. Maybe Spy, but he's no combatant. As you say, moderately high int, perilously low wisdom. Feats include Small.

Fezzik - Human Wanderer. Feats include Large, Brawny, and Giant.

Count Rugen - A Musketeer/Rogue who jumped into the Lord's hand prestige class as soon as he could, and uses his Torture class ability all the time. Important feats - the fencing stuff, along with (of course) Six Fingers.

Miracle Max - he's an Alchemist. He has to be 8th level to brew 5th level spells into potions, so let's call him 8th. (It's clearly a potion, mind you, no a spell.)

Buttercup - If she ever did anything we'd have a better grasp of her capabilities. She's clearly not nobility, but she must be relatively well off if she can spend all day riding and tormenting the farmboy who works for her, so I'll call her a low level Courtier with a problem player.
 

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Scupper

First Post
tsadkiel said:


The Princess Bride works much better with Swashbuckling Adventures:


I knew I'd be in trouble if we went beyond the Core Rules. Well, I can't debate your interpretation using the Swashbuckling Adventures rules, as I do not have them. However, I would have to take issue with your contention that Westley is somehow of a lower level than Inigo, making up for a lack of skill with some incredibly high stats. This is not even remotely possible.

Unless Inigo's stats are pretty poor (no indication of that), Westley couldn't make up the difference in tumbling (clearly much better) and swordplay (he's obviously just trying to make Inigo feel like he's not getting his ass kicked). Plus we have to give Westley at least a few ranks in Perform (witty banter, panache), Climb (obviously) and Bluff ("Now we find out who is right, and who is dead.")

Plus, we can't discount the fact that Westley's ship is, "inconceivably," faster than Vizzini's (the "Wind at Your Back" ability of the Dread Pirate class). We should also remember that, as the Dread Pirate Roberts, Westley has a "Fearsome Reputation," another feature of the Dread Pirate Class.

Even rated solely by his Duelist class levels, it's likely that Westley is of a higher level than Inigo (in addition to posessing a higher Dex), but his other talents clearly set him well beyond Inigo in overall character level.

While it may be possible that Westley's player has totally fudged his die rolls, that sort of misbehavior is outside the realm of a rules discussion and is best dealt with in a discussion of player misconduct. And even so, if Westley had an 18 Dex bumped up twice (at 4th and 8th level) to 20, he'd still have only a +5 stat modifier. While Inigo may not be quite that dexterous, it's highly unlikely that he has less than a +2 or +3 stat modifier in that arena. Thus, even a phenomenal Dex couldn't create the obvious gap in ability between the two characters.
 

ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
Scupper said:



Well, I suppose that's possible, but I was thinking more along the lines of the "charming rogue." I have a little trouble imagining Prince Phillip taking an NPC class. It just seems so beneath him.



I think Aristocrat is a better choice. A pretty good class, tailor-made for such characters, and not that far from being on par with the PC classes. Rogue...well, I think sneak attack is beneath him.
 

jaults

First Post
    I think this is just about the coolest thread I have seen in a long time... Please, continue!

Thanks,
    Jason
 

Scupper

First Post
I'll concede that Phillip may have Aristocrat levels instead of Rogue. Indeed, after reviewing that class again in my DMG, it seems reasonable (though the skill points per level are not on par with rogues').

As a side note, how the heck does the Aristocrat have "Read Lips" as a class skill?
 

tsadkiel

Legend
Okay, I'll give you the Dread Pirate PrC. But having watched the film at least once a day fro the last few weeks (I've been tending my sisters kids, and they love the movie) I don't think Westley's that much better. I'd say his attack bonus and AC are both marginally better than Inigos. The distance has to be less than the penalty for using a weapon in your off-hand, as when Inigo was fencing righthanded while Westley was fencing lefthanded, Inigo was winning.
 

Scupper

First Post
True, but since neither of them has the Ambidexterity feat, we're talking about a -4 penalty, which is pretty significant. And I would be very surprised if Westley couldn't have topped Inigo left-handed, as he seems pretty chipper about the whole thing (if they were truly closely-matched, I dont' think he would have done the off-hand thing in the first place).

Inigo apparently rarely, if ever, meets anyone who can match him in swordplay, explaining his use of the off-hand to make it a challenge. Westley seems completely unsurprised by Inigo's revelation, leading me to believe that he has either used Sense Motive to figure out what Inigo intended to do, or has previously used Gather Information to find out this bit of trivia about the Spaniard.

Either way, Westley's own use of the off-hand against such an obviously-competent opponent can only indicate either brash overconfidence or a keen ability to size up any opponent. Judging from Westley's continued success against Fezzig and Vizzini in that regard, I'd guess the latter.
 
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MasterOfHeaven

First Post
Scupper said:


I knew I'd be in trouble if we went beyond the Core Rules. Well, I can't debate your interpretation using the Swashbuckling Adventures rules, as I do not have them. However, I would have to take issue with your contention that Westley is somehow of a lower level than Inigo, making up for a lack of skill with some incredibly high stats. This is not even remotely possible.

Unless Inigo's stats are pretty poor (no indication of that), Westley couldn't make up the difference in tumbling (clearly much better) and swordplay (he's obviously just trying to make Inigo feel like he's not getting his ass kicked). Plus we have to give Westley at least a few ranks in Perform (witty banter, panache), Climb (obviously) and Bluff ("Now we find out who is right, and who is dead.")

Plus, we can't discount the fact that Westley's ship is, "inconceivably," faster than Vizzini's (the "Wind at Your Back" ability of the Dread Pirate class). We should also remember that, as the Dread Pirate Roberts, Westley has a "Fearsome Reputation," another feature of the Dread Pirate Class.

Even rated solely by his Duelist class levels, it's likely that Westley is of a higher level than Inigo (in addition to posessing a higher Dex), but his other talents clearly set him well beyond Inigo in overall character level.

While it may be possible that Westley's player has totally fudged his die rolls, that sort of misbehavior is outside the realm of a rules discussion and is best dealt with in a discussion of player misconduct. And even so, if Westley had an 18 Dex bumped up twice (at 4th and 8th level) to 20, he'd still have only a +5 stat modifier. While Inigo may not be quite that dexterous, it's highly unlikely that he has less than a +2 or +3 stat modifier in that arena. Thus, even a phenomenal Dex couldn't create the obvious gap in ability between the two characters.


Heh. Read the book, please. The movie isn't nearly as accurate or well thought out. Inigo and Westley are actually evenly matched, except Inigo is better when fighting on an uneven surface, and Westley is better when fighting on an even surface. They try to portray that a bit in the movie, but don't really suceed.

Inigo and Westley are likely the same level, and Westley simply rolled better in the fight they had. I'd say both are around 15th-16th level.
 


MasterOfHeaven

First Post
Scupper said:


Okay, this madness has to stop. I promise this is the last one.

Willow

Characters

Willow - A pretty iffy sorcerer, if ever there was one. Willow is clearly a low-to-mid-level halfling rogue with a decent, but not amazing Use Magic Device skill. His attempts to use a wand of polymorph other are comically inept, and he wastes about two dozen charges trying to get Fin Raziel back into human form. His Bluff skill is good enough to fool evil Queen Bavmorda, though she doesn't seem to have a very high Sense Motive anyway. We'll call Willow a Rogue 5/Sorcerer 1 by the end of the film.

Madmardigan - Basically a fighter with few social skills. We see Madmardigan fail a Will save (vs. the spell causing him to fall in love with Sorsha), which is typical of a fighter. However, he also fails a Forititude save vs. Bavmorda's polymorph other, which is indicative of a relatively low level, overall. Madmardigan checks in as a Fighter 8/Rogue 2.

Queen Bavmorda - Well, a Transmuter, obviously, as that's just about all the magic she uses in the film. She's clearly made herself at least one wand of polymorph other, as she casts the spell an ungodly number of times toward the end of the film. Her trick freezing all the soldiers in Tiras Lee seems to have involved some variant of flesh to stone, but that's never made clear. Additionally, it's not at all clear she was even there, indicating she may have vast range for her powers. Conservatively, we'll place her at Transmuter 12.

Sorsha - Displays a decent fighting ability, but not really comparable to Madmardigan. Most likely, she's a fighter 8 like him, but lacks his rogue levels, which gives him the edge.

Fin Raziel - It's unclear what Fin was capable of in her heyday, but it's abundantly clear she's no match for Bavmorda, and probably never was. Fin checks in at about Sorcerer 8, with some stat loss (notably Charisma, which is vital to sorcerers).

General Kael - Kael is a pretty tough customer, cutting a swath through the good guys at every opportunity. He gives Madmardigan quite a fight and seems to be tougher than the hero. Kael is likely a Fighter 6/Blackguard 4, though he shows a remarkable dearth of feats. It's quite possible he's just not very bright and therefore doesn't make good use of the feats he possesses.

Highlights and Gaffes

We can only speculate at the manner by which Bavmorda incapacitates the garrison at Tiras Lee, because it happens off-screen. A likely scenario is that she scrys on the fortress, teleports there while protected by improved invisibility and then uses a wand of flesh to stone on each of the guards, who are all Warrior 1's and therefore incapable of handling an invisible opponent. A stretch, but nothing compared to her later antics on the battlements. Bavmorda then teleports back to her fortress and lets the ignorant populace believe that she can cast spells on targets she can't even see.

Trolls have no inherent spider climb ability in Core Rulebook III, though it's possible the creatures infesting the ruins of Tiras Lee are some sort of variant troll, or that they have a template applied to them. They don't display much in the way of Regeneration either, for that matter.

Willow's attempts to use the polymorph other wand on Fin Raziel illustrate the difficulty in using the Use Magic Device skill. He's trying to fake an effective Wizard caster level of 7, meaning he's got to get a total roll of 27 (caster level = result - 20). He's probably a Rogue 4 at this point in the film, meaning his maximum number of ranks in the skill is 7. His Charisma bonus is probably not very good, as he's a truculent, argumentative peck with few social skills, so we'll say he has a Cha of 10 (and that's generous). So he's looking for a natural 20 on this roll. It's no wonder he gets so many mishaps.

The scene in which Bavmorda casts polymorph other on just about every soldier in the attacking army is just plain silly. Even if she had a nice supply of wands to provide the castings, it's clear that she doesn't take an action for every one of her targets. Bending the rules a little may let her use a wand of quickened polymorph other, but it is pure munchkinism to believe that she could still cast so many spells in a single turn (plus it would mean she'd have to be at least a Transmuter 15 to make the wand). The fact that nobody whips out a longbow and nails her with it is also rather ludicrous (though she may have protection from arrows up, we don't even see anybody try). It's also pretty unbelievable that not one soldier in the entire army makes his Fort save.

It's nearly inconceivable that Bavmorda's Spellcraft skill is too low to see through Willow's cheesy "disappearing baby" Bluff attempt at the end of the film, but we can probably chalk that one up to a really poor roll on her part vs. a great one on his. Such are the fortunes of the d20 system.

Okay. First, you forgot Eric. I'd say Eric was a Fighter/Warmaster of around 12th to 14th level. Second, I'd like to say I think your numbers on the characters in Willow are a bit conservative.

After all, Mad Mordigan basically defeats that two headed Dragon all by himself, while Kaal cuts through regular Warriors like a hot knife through butter and even defeats Eric with little difficulty (another character who was ripping the normal soldiers to shreds).

Unfortunately, the lack of special effects technology means we can't really see much that makes us think "high level Wizard/Sorcerer", but I'd say Razel is at least a level 10 Sorcerer, given her use of Telekinesis on Razel. Since Razel defeats her, I'd say she's a level 15-18 Sorcerer or Cleric serving evil. IMO, of course.
 

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