Strongholds?

[Clavis]

IMO, the 3.x system discourages strongholds, simply because it's near impossible to defend a stronghold against, well, anything. Walls are useless when there are so many ways to bypass (flying, burrowing, etherealness) or destroy them (disintegrate, move earth, stone to mud, etc.). Offense always trumps defense. Also, the system makes standard guards/soldiers (level 2-3 warriors) nearly useless against anything level/CR 5 or higher.

This was a logical problem with high-magic campaigns in every edition. The only difference is that 3.x ed assumes that magic is much more common than previous editions. One really has to make a choice: do you want the atmosphere and great adventure locations that castles provide, or do you want common magic (which makes castles useless)? I wanted to have castles in my campaign. Therefore, I made human Wizards rare and feared. I bound them together in magical Orders that were outside of the law, and made it a point of their common conventions that they never involve themselves in human politics. For balance, I made it so that only certain rare clerics (the equivalents of saints) could actually perform miracles. Magic exists, everybody knows it exists, and it is powerful. But it doesn't impact the lives of most people, unless they cross a wizard. Therefore, by keeping magic rare and mysterious, castles still make sense.

On the other, perhaps in a high-magic world magic would exist to counter magical attacks on structures. Essentially, there might be a way to turn a stronghold into one big, magic-negating, magic item! In worlds where wands are sold in shops, I would think that every castle could be enchanted to resist magic.

 

[Wolfwood2]

One thing I've figured out is that the best way to attack a high level party is indirectly.
Few things are tough enough to stand up to them in a straight up fight. Lots of low level people can come up with socio-economic maneuvering and are smart enough to hire a sage with Spellcraft and Knowledge:Arcana to find ways to circumvent the common magics. Middle men, cut-outs, patsies, fall guys, and unwitting pawns are the way to go. The best conspiracies look like a bunch of individuals doing their own thing.

Despite your remark about the stable boy, I think it's best if such conspiracies have a goal beyond "attack a high level party". If someone is going to expend such time and effort, they should probably expect to gain something from it beyond the mere goal of hurting the PCs for the sake of hurting them.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Sorry, I meant "as a DM" vs. "as an NPC." The NPC needs a valid motivation to justify the effort of attacking the party in any fashion.

I tend to reserve that level of sneaky for NPCs that aren't ready to be seen as blatantly evil. They could be like Senator Palpatine; apparently loyal and working within the system but actually behind a conspiracy. The heroes, like the Jedi Council, would be threats that needed to be eliminated. Alternately they are blatantly evil, like Baron Harkonnen, but that don't have the power to directly confront the party.

However it's much easier to challenge the party (as a DM) if I can use lower level antagonists who rely on guile and connections rather than brawn. Palpatine was personally powerful but he used politics and connections to handle 90% of the Jedi. In all honesty, Palpatine could have been a mundane politician like Harkonnen who hooked up with Darth Maul and it only would have changed 2 scenes in the entire series (Palpatine vs. Yoda, Palpatine vs. Luke).

 

[BenjErik]

Also Palpatine VS Mace Windu and friends.

 

[Kraydak]

One thing I've figured out is that the best way to attack a high level party is indirectly.
Few things are tough enough to stand up to them in a straight up fight. Lots of low level people can come up with socio-economic maneuvering and are smart enough to hire a sage with Spellcraft and Knowledge:Arcana to find ways to circumvent the common magics. Middle men, cut-outs, patsies, fall guys, and unwitting pawns are the way to go. The best conspiracies look like a bunch of individuals doing their own thing.

...

I await the day my players get rude and overbearing so that I can have a giant complicated machination of vengeance that is ultimately traced back to the stable boy who got kicked into a manure pile in front of his girlfriend by the fighter.

Conspiracies work great until the PCs stop playing the game:

Mayor: "You owe person X money, pay up or else".
PC to Mayor's 2nd in command:"Deal with the problem or we pick up and leave, taking what we feel we are owed with us, leaving you at the mercies of enemies Y and Z that we have been protecting you from."
Mayor's 2nd in command: "But he is the Mayor".
PC: "Not anymore, by demanding we pay up, he showed his inadequacy. Run along now, and don't forget that there are *always* people willing to bid for the services of people of our powerlevel. We are here because we feel like it, make the area inhospitable and we will leave."
New Mayor: "Yessir".

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Conspiracies work great until the PCs stop playing the game:

Mayor: "You owe person X money, pay up or else".
PC to Mayor's 2nd in command:"Deal with the problem or we pick up and leave, taking what we feel we are owed with us, leaving you at the mercies of enemies Y and Z that we have been protecting you from."
Mayor's 2nd in command: "But he is the Mayor".
PC: "Not anymore, by demanding we pay up, he showed his inadequacy. Run along now, and don't forget that there are *always* people willing to bid for the services of people of our powerlevel. We are here because we feel like it, make the area inhospitable and we will leave."
New Mayor: "Yessir".

And if the PCs decide not to take into consideration the bonds, privileges, and protections that they would lose if they decided to take that course of action, and that the conspirators don't have backup plans and contingencies for that manner of situation, then either the DM didn't quite do right, the PCs are dumb, or the players are done with the campaign.

 

[haakon1]

IMO, the 3.x system discourages strongholds, simply because it's near impossible to defend a stronghold against, well, anything. Walls are useless when there are so many ways to bypass (flying, burrowing, etherealness) or destroy them (disintegrate, move earth, stone to mud, etc.). Offense always trumps defense. Also, the system makes standard guards/soldiers (level 2-3 warriors) nearly useless against anything level/CR 5 or higher.

IMO, the best way to handle tax collection in a higher magic/powered campaign is to tax magic items at the city gates through a permanent Detect Magic effect. Place a tax on certain strength magic items and hand out some sort of counter that PCs can produce to prove that they've paid the tax for that year.

It also has lots of opportunity for chaotic characters to have minor run ins with the law through trying to circumvent tax collection.

You've just got the levels too high in your campaign for medieval stuff to "work right".

If the average soldier is a Level 1 Warrior with a spear and studded leather armor, and a Level 5 Wizard is a feared and powerful-wielder of that most impressive spell most people have heard of -- a "Fireball-capable mage" as folks say with more than a hint of fear in my campaign -- than walls are, well, walls.

But if the average bartender is a Rogue 5/Ninja 2 and his place is lit by Continual Flames, yeah, walls are pointless.

"A World Lit Only by Fire" is a good medieval history book, and a good thing to keep in mind if you want a medieval-style campaign.

Of course, it's also fun to have some up-magicked fortresses, too, so even the superstar PC's can't waltz past every fortress.

 

[haakon1]

The second campaign was a 1e/2e/3e FR campaign that lasted a long time and in which the PCs ended up rescuing from evil three separate domains scattered across the Realms. They connected the three domains by means of gates (permanent teleport spells), but really only focused on expanding the third one, which was a small realm centered around the town of Glister north of the Moonsea. In time, that realm became a strong power, but one constantly under threat by giants, ogres, orcs, drow elves, and the cruel city-states of the Moonsea (Zhentil Keep, Mulmaster et al), which kept the PCs on their toes and led to several grueling adventures as well as a few massed battles and a great deal of power-mongering and diplomacy. The game worked in part because I set up rules to keep much of the "boring" stuff offstage, and also because by the time the domain was substantial enough to be a problem to manage, the PCs were personally powerful enough, and had enough cohorts and other loyalists, to deal with the majority of issues without each and every one necessitating a full-blown adventure.

That sounds awesome. I wish I had the time to run something like this. (green with envy)

 

[haakon1]

I'd say it all depends on the flavor of the campaign, region you're in, etc.

In one campaign I played in, where the DM set the game on a large landmass in the northwest corner of Greyhawk (so he could use the Greyhawk world motif and some elements but have the PCs start in a place without much historical baggage), it was mostly untamed wilderness with a smallish portion of the landmass inhabited by third or fourth generation settlers so there was plenty of land to grab and settle in. The PCs were all from the same general area.

Also, the PCs saw no reason to go to the main continent. So we adventured in the Northlands (as the isle was called), eventually earning title and carving out holdings. And there was so much to do right there...two separate goblin wars, giant incursion, drow problems, political infighting amongst the various lords, a valley of kobolds watched over by a dragon, etc. At the end of the day, the PCs just made the short trip to their lands and stronghold. The only time we ever ventured to the main continent is when we launched an incursion into Rauxes, but a threat to our stronghold in the Northlands drew us back.

Northeast (off the Viking-ish Thillronian Peninsula) or Northwest Greyhawk (off the Tiger Nomads and the Burneal Forest).

I was thinking there should be some Viking-types in a small Suloise settlement between the Burneal Forest and the Dramidj Ocean . . . I'm not sure if that's "canon" these days or not.

I'm also thinking there's a gate of some sort between East and West. In my campaign, between Ratikhill and somewhere in Greyhawk City (or Castle Greyhawk?) would make sense. In most campaigns, Rel Astra to Greyhawk City would make sense, as a trading venture to avoid sea entanglements.

 

[haakon1]

Mayor: "You owe person X money, pay up or else".
PC to Mayor's 2nd in command:"Deal with the problem or we pick up and leave, taking what we feel we are owed with us, leaving you at the mercies of enemies Y and Z that we have been protecting you from."
Mayor's 2nd in command: "But he is the Mayor".
PC: "Not anymore, by demanding we pay up, he showed his inadequacy. Run along now, and don't forget that there are *always* people willing to bid for the services of people of our powerlevel. We are here because we feel like it, make the area inhospitable and we will leave."
Mayor's 2nd in command: "Yessir".

<Cut Scene>

Mayor's 2nd in command (offscreen): "And then they said you were no longer mayor, and if you don't let them take whatever they like, they'll defect to serve any master who pays them."
Mayor: "Even the hobgoblin king, or the lich lord, or the guys on the other side of the mountain with the different style hats?"
Mayor's 2nd in command: "Just so, my lord."
Mayor: "What insolance, what arrogance. This is treason. It is our sworn duty to oppose treason."
Mayor's 2nd in command: "Indeed, my lord."
Mayor: "But what can we do? These people can cast Fireball! Our militia could never bring them to heal, but we must stop them before they can fall-in with our enemies."
Mayor's 2nd in command: "I think I know someone who can help."

<Cut Scene>

Ironfist the Assassin: "Look, it's for the good of the City. I've got a signed parchment from the Mayor right here."
Paper reads: "Please give Ironfist assistance in all matters. He serves the good of the City, and our King. Signed, Hizzonor, Mayor of Dragonville"
Cook: "OK, then. It is my honor to serve the King. Do as you must. Time for me to make a short trip to the outhouse, eh?"
Ironfist winks at the cook: "They'll be none the wiser."

<Cut Scene>

DM: "So you guys are eating the stew at the Inn of the Welcome Wench. Suddenly Erol chokes on something . . . roll some Fort saves, DC25 . . . "
Erol rolls: "11+7 = 18. D'oh."
DM: "And the rest of you?"
Players: "We thought it was just Erol choking?"
DM: "It's not. Roll for everybody."
Players: "But we're not even in a fight . . . "