Surprise round question

[Maxperson]

That's alright. The question was rhetorical.

Since 100% of your post was rhetoric and Strawman, you shouldn'thave posted at all.

 

[Hriston]

Since 100% of your post was rhetoric and Strawman, you shouldn'thave posted at all.

My post was relevant to the discussion in progress when you joined in. If you don't want to take part in that discussion, maybe YOU shouldn't have posted.

 

[Hriston]

Then let me make my point more succinctly: what's the point in choosing either Stealth or Perception as my trained skills? They would be totally wasted skill choices because you don't ask for skill rolls in situations where a creature's skill level in either 'noticing' or 'not being noticed' comes into play. You just 'decide'.

I simply disagree that what we're talking about is a situation in which those skills are in play. The Unconscious condition tells me that an unconscious creature is unaware of its surroundings, so it doesn't matter how skilled in Perception that creature is. It is still unaware. And it doesn't matter how skilled in Stealth an assassin sneaking up on the creature is, because the unconscious creature won't notice the assassin until it regains consciousness. That doesn't mean there aren't other situations where those skills do come into play.

In your game, how would I make an assassin? I know you're going to just declare that I'm automatically successful in my Stealth attempt, or that I auto-fail. Therefore, my 'stealthy assassin' concept is better realised without wasting one of my skill proficiencies in Stealth.

If your only assassination targets are unconscious creatures, then I would say you were right. I would still invest in DEX though, to increase chances that the creature is still surprised when your attack goes off.

 

[Maxperson]

My post was relevant to the discussion in progress when you joined in. If you don't want to take part in that discussion, maybe YOU shouldn't have posted.

My post was relevant to the discussion. Your post responded to mine in a completely irrelevant way. You posted rhetoric and Strawman, and nothing else.

 

[Maxperson]

Basically, how I see myself and my wife in relation to this thread is like this. Sleeping gives a -4 penalty. My feat of light sleeper gives me a -2. My wife's flaw of deep sleeper, combined with the flaw loud snoring gives her a -8. An elf would also be -2 without the need for a feat since they are semiconscious.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I simply disagree that what we're talking about is a situation in which those skills are in play. The Unconscious condition tells me that an unconscious creature is unaware of its surroundings, so it doesn't matter how skilled in Perception that creature is. It is still unaware. And it doesn't matter how skilled in Stealth an assassin sneaking up on the creature is, because the unconscious creature won't notice the assassin until it regains consciousness. That doesn't mean there aren't other situations where those skills do come into play.



If your only assassination targets are unconscious creatures, then I would say you were right. I would still invest in DEX though, to increase chances that the creature is still surprised when your attack goes off.

And we are saying sleeping isn't unconscious and unaware, and have given plenty of evidence in RL to prove that. Do we need to bring in medical opinion too?

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[redrick]

...

That's how it's meant to work. The biggest question as the DM though is deciding just how many Stealth checks you make for your monsters. The more rolls you make, the more likely you are going to roll poorly on at least one of them and thus alert ALL of the PCs and thus nobody is surprised. In your particular case... most DMs would probably roll a single check for all the goblins and a single check for all the wolves (since they have two different Stealth check modifiers.) But you are also within your right as the DM to roll a single Stealth check for the entire group of enemies, doing exactly as you suggested... using the higher modifier, the lower, or split the difference. It's really up to you.

You could treat multiple rolls from the monsters as "a group check."

To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.

Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group.

This is kind of the same as giving the monsters advantage: 4 goblins roll, but only 2 need to succeed for the group as a whole to succeed. And since you're a DM rolling behind the screen, why roll 4 dice when you can roll 2? The rules give discretion to the DM, of course, as to what qualifies as "a group check," ie, so you could decide that a group of goblins sneaking up are more likely to hinder than help each other.

As for rules for waking up when sleeping, I'll stay out of that argument.

 

[CydKnight]

And we are saying sleeping isn't unconscious and unaware, and have given plenty of evidence in RL to prove that. Do we need to bring in medical opinion too?

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app

I have found some definitions in a cursory online search that have used the word "unconscious" or "loss of consciousness" or "suspension of consciousness" at least partially to describe the state of sleep. So it would seem that textbook definitions are implying that there is at least some level of unconsciousness with sleep that renders one unaware of it's surroundings though most stop short of declaring total loss of consciousness.

Of course, as a DM, one can absolutely feel free to apply the mechanic in question any way they feel best suits their game and/or fits their own interpretation of the rule.

 

[Kalshane]

I would definitely consider sleep a different state than unconscious. A noise/touch/whatever can rouse a sleeping person, whereas someone who is actually unconscious won't necessarily respond to such stimuli.

 

[CydKnight]

I would definitely consider sleep a different state than unconscious. A noise/touch/whatever can rouse a sleeping person, whereas someone who is actually unconscious won't necessarily respond to such stimuli.

Is a response required to define consciousness? Because no response is given doesn't necessarily mean a person is unconscious. There have been many reports of people appearing unconscious and unable to provide reactions or responses to stimuli but later, when obviously conscious, being able to recall the details.

I do agree that sleep doesn't necessarily mean fully unconscious. I feel semi-conscious might be the best description but it may not be a perfect fit either. The universally accepted idea that there are different levels of sleep would seem to muddy the waters even more as to whether sleep can accurately be classified as conscious or unconscious.

While sleeping, responding to stimuli doesn't necessarily mean you know what is happening around you. You simply heard a noise or felt a touch. Rouse doesn't necessarily mean bring one to full consciousness. I could be roused from sleep by a loud noise in the middle of the night but it is highly unlikely that I can tell you the source or even the direction of that noise as accurately as I can if awake and full conscious. Conversely, if someone tiptoes through my room quietly enough while I am sleeping, there is a good chance that I won't even know it happened. I have also witnessed people not respond at all to certain tactile stimuli when sleeping.

So while certain stimuli assuredly "can" rouse one from sleeping, there is certainly no guarantee that it will. For simplicities sake I do like applying the 5E meaning of the rules for being unconscious for creatures or PCs that are sleeping even if they don't precisely mirror real life. This can largely be negated by having a party trade watches when sleeping in the open so I don't view it as such a big deal.