Taking a side with a jerk

[Bullgrit]

I've never had a friend get angry with me for disagreeing with them...

It's not about simple disagreement. Friends can and do and will disagree all the time. Even sometimes vehemently. But *friends* [edit: at least my kind of friends] disagree without being mean jerks to each other.

Bullgrit

 

[PigKnight]

Ever been in a discussion, (in the Real World, in a face-to-face situation),

That feels like a pretty thin veil, but I'll bite.

where the "side" you agree with has an advocate who is just being a total jerk? You want to participate, and state your view of the topic, but to do so will essentially put you on the same side as someone you find completely repugnant?

As a Republican I face this problem far too often.

What do you do? Enter the discussion with your opinion and ignore the jerk?

Yes.

Stay out of the discussion all together to avoid being related with the jerk?

If you're not a jerk and the discusion won't label you a jerk, why are you worried about being labeled a jerk?

"Join" the other side just to oppose the jerk?

Why? Why would you ever do that? That makes you a phony and a liar.

Something else?

A systematic destruction of their argument followed up by a point-by-point statement of facts backing up my argument. If I am winning the argument and they start attacking me personally, a boolean thingy occurs.
>If I know the person's background/thinking patterns and the agrument is not particularily important
>>Then destroy them psychologically
>>Else take the high road

Are you a good debater in person?

I'm the best AROUND! no one's ever gonna take me down. 'Cus I'm the best AROUND! no one's ever gonna take me doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooown.

Bullgrit

PigKnight

 

[Zombie_Babies]

There are some people, like my wife, who really hates debating things. Since I have friends who like to debate things, this can be seen as a negative attribute on them. Namely, because to non-debaters, they get annoyed that the other person can't just let the matter drop.

For someone like myself, debating can be a trap of trying to get the other person to change/admit something. If I can detect that I'm falling into it early, I'd just as soon wrap it up, rather than irritate the missus.

Heh, keeping the missus happy is generally always a good idea.

 

[Zombie_Babies]

It's not about simple disagreement. Friends can and do and will disagree all the time. Even sometimes vehemently. But *friends* [edit: at least my kind of friends] disagree without being mean jerks to each other.

Bullgrit

Heh, my friends and I are mean jerks to each other all the time. The thing is, we don't mean it. We're not the sort to require that we're very careful with what we say. Thick skin is absolutely necessary to roll with my crew. Just sorta happened that way, too. Not sure why.

 

[Bullgrit]

Heh, my friends and I are mean jerks to each other all the time. The thing is, we don't mean it. We're not the sort to require that we're very careful with what we say. Thick skin is absolutely necessary to roll with my crew. Just sorta happened that way, too. Not sure why.

Some people like to salsa, some people like to slam dance.

Bullgrit

 

[Robin Hoodlum]

Ever been in a discussion, (in the Real World, in a face-to-face situation), where the "side" you agree with has an advocate who is just being a total jerk? You want to participate, and state your view of the topic, but to do so will essentially put you on the same side as someone you find completely repugnant?

What do you do? Enter the discussion with your opinion and ignore the jerk? Stay out of the discussion all together to avoid being related with the jerk? "Join" the other side just to oppose the jerk? Something else?

Are you a good debater in person?

Bullgrit

I'm a jerk anyway, so I would simply continue to be me.

I too have found myself agreeing with people I totally loathe and despise. I even tell them when I do so.
Just ask CJ.

 

[Janx]

Heh, keeping the missus happy is generally always a good idea.

Yup. When I'm wiser, I figure out if I really need to be right and discern that I do not.

Like the thread with the robo telemarketing and how I hate telemarketing.

I don't NEED to have telemarketing be eliminated. Certainly not more than somebody else needs a check from it.

now if it's a debate about a course of action that I know is going to hurt me, then I will be more vociferous in my defense of the rightness of not doing things that hurt me.

 

[Umbran]

What do you do? Enter the discussion with your opinion and ignore the jerk?

Sometimes. In some real-life, face-to-face conversations, with the more full communication available, the jerk is easier to manage than in plain text.

Stay out of the discussion all together to avoid being related with the jerk?

I may stay out of the discussion, but not for your stated reason. The jerk may just make the conversation unpleasant, and then I may just not engage.

"Join" the other side just to oppose the jerk?

No. That's just making it personal, which is a bad scene.

Are you a good debater in person?

Depends what you mean by "good debater".

There's formal debate, which has a scoring system and which can be won or lost. But most folks aren't actually learned of the forms - they remember that you're supposed to win or lose, and they forget the purpose of the exercise, which is to explore a topic to see what grains of truth can be found.

That forgetfulness means that most modern social situations are not appropriate places to really debate things - the winning and losing hangup becomes a real issue that can louse up a social gathering something fierce.

Places like EN World offer more appropriate settings for debate. However, on the internet these days, there's folks still caught up in the winning and losing. Some feel that refusing to back down, getting the last word, making the other guy lose their cool, playing tricks with semantics, or saying things you can snigger about in private conversations counts as good debate. I'm not one of those people. Debate isn't about scoring points within a social group, or taking people down a notch in ego.

Edit: I'm talking about people in general, folks. Not OTTers in particular. Not everything in the world is about OTTers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

When i side with a jerk- in a non-professional capacity- I basically have 3 steps:

1) express my support of the position espoused by the jerk, often explicitly rephrasing the jerk's own words, (hopefully) in a clear & non-jerky way.

2) point out the jerk's jerkiness to him, and point out how that behavior is a hinderance to making his point.

3) if the jerkiness gets to a certain point, I disengage.

 

[Herobizkit]

When i side with a jerk- in a non-professional capacity- I basically have 3 steps:

1) express my support of the position espoused by the jerk, often explicitly rephrasing the jerk's own words, (hopefully) in a clear & non-jerky way.

2) point out the jerk's jerkiness to him, and point out how that behavior is a hinderance to making his point.

3) if the jerkiness gets to a certain point, I disengage.

Lawyered. :3

I remember a time when my childhood friend was accused of saying jerky things about another person, causing her to yell at him and forbid him from visiting her house (the place where we all hung out). Everyone except me believed my pal said what they were told, jumping to the girl's defense. I found out where the accusation came from, found and confronted the guy who started the rumour, and made the guy face my pal and (sort of) apologize for the whole thing. My pal was never allowed back to the house, and he also took it personally that I didn't tell the whole group to piss off and leave with him.

At the time, I felt I had done the right thing to try and make peace with everyone, but the girl refused to believe the truth even after it was revealed and wouldn't change her mind. So, for a time, I lost one of my oldest childhood friends over defending a jerk - in this case, it was the girl AND the other guy who were both being jerks.

We eventually reconciled, but it was an intense time for everyone involved.