D&D 5E Taking point buy to the next level

[Crothian]

One thing that always bothers me about point buy is it is just a used in character creation, and then it is forgotten. What if instead of gaining +1 attrbutes every fourth level you got points for point buy? What if instead of getting +2/-2 for race attributes you got bonus minuses to the point buy?

So, I purpose the following, instead of gaining +1 to an attbute every fourth level instead people gain 3 ponts to increase attributes using the point buy system. It would allow lower attributes to be increased faster but hamper higher attributes. Players can also save the points for higher level. Each time an attribute gain happens the player gets one more point so 4 points at 8, 5 at 12, 6 at 16, and 7 at 20.

Races would get +4 point buy, -4 point buy. This would allow for higher average scores but stop the races from starting with extremely high scores ie a 20. The negative 4 point buy would be prettyy bad as if no points were placed in it it would be a 4, but I like that lower stats would then be able to be gotten using point buy.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

I never used point-buy, but this intrigues me.

We use 4d6, reroll 1s until there are none, arrange as desired. This consistently generates super-powered characters, which my players love, and for which I can compensate with suped-up monsters and other challenges.

The problem is that I sometimes would like to go back to 3d6, rolled in order. I like when I end up with a character with a 3 in one ability score. They have an interesting hook right from the start. Low ability scores, in my experience, are more interesting than high ones. High ones are thrilling on the day that the PC is generated, but low ones make for stories with which one can bore friends and acquaintences for years or decades to come.

 

[Staffan]

What if instead of getting +2/-2 for race attributes you got bonus minuses to the point buy?

That would defeat the purpose of racial modifiers. If you're just giving point-buy modifiers, assuming they balance out, that's the same as saying "If you play an elf, you should put a high value in Dex and a low value in Con."

 

[Crothian]

That would defeat the purpose of racial modifiers. If you're just giving point-buy modifiers, assuming they balance out, that's the same as saying "If you play an elf, you should put a high value in Dex and a low value in Con."

isn't that what a +2 to dex and -2 to con does anyway? A +2 dex applied to a 14 makes it a 16, which is like getting 4 point buy points. A -2 con applied to a 14 gives a 12 which is only a 2 penalty. It is easier in the current system to make the +2 worth more then the -2 which is exactly why we don't see abilitiy scores of -1/+1. Making the modifiers actually point buy numbers fixes this.

 

[Scion]

currently we use something like that in my game, although a bit different.

Every level you get point but points equal to the level you just gained (so when you hit level 2 you get 2 more, level 3 you get 3 more, etc), you can save up extra ones for later if you like.

high scores are prohibitively expensive (the point buy chart keeps going up normally) so most characters will wind up having one or two decently high scores (by this I mean high 20's to low 30's) or a bunch of mid range stats (again, by this I mean around 16 to mid 20's).

There are no spells or items that give enhancement bonus to stats, although you can still get inherant bonuses.

When you first make your character the race gives you the appropriate bonuses, but thereafter you treat the score as though it is what it is.


So far it has worked out very nicely. I have one character who is going for shooting a single stat up as high as possible and everyone else is trying to focus on about 3 stats each.

At high levels focusing on a single stat works out about the same as a normal game does with its +5 from a level and a +6 item so it havent been any 'getting a higher stat than normal' problems, it also takes a lot of focusing to do it.

To me it makes the characters feel more like 'heros', especially later on. Around level 10 to 12 most brought all of their low scores up a point or two..

It is interesting

 

[Staffan]

isn't that what a +2 to dex and -2 to con does anyway? A +2 dex applied to a 14 makes it a 16, which is like getting 4 point buy points. A -2 con applied to a 14 gives a 12 which is only a 2 penalty. It is easier in the current system to make the +2 worth more then the -2 which is exactly why we don't see abilitiy scores of -1/+1. Making the modifiers actually point buy numbers fixes this.

That assumes that point buy is the base of the system. It's not. Rolling stats is.

And the way I see it, the increasing costs in the point-buy system is not so much a matter of higher stats being worth more (increasing a 16 to an 18 doesn't really give you a bigger benefit than increasing a 12 to a 14) but as a way to discourage people from buying "improbable" stats, thereby sort of retaining the probabilities inherent in rolling. Racial modifiers are supposed to move those probabilities (elves with Dex 16 should be as common as humans with Dex 14 - well, relative to the race's population, that is).

 

[Crothian]

That assumes that point buy is the base of the system. It's not. Rolling stats is.

So then when people make point buy the basis for their game shouldn't there be a change then?

And the way I see it, the increasing costs in the point-buy system is not so much a matter of higher stats being worth more (increasing a 16 to an 18 doesn't really give you a bigger benefit than increasing a 12 to a 14) but as a way to discourage people from buying "improbable" stats, thereby sort of retaining the probabilities inherent in rolling. Racial modifiers are supposed to move those probabilities (elves with Dex 16 should be as common as humans with Dex 14 - well, relative to the race's population, that is).

I think higher stats are worth more. One qualifies for much better feats with higher stats, casters get access to better spells and get better bonus spells.

 

[Scion]

It is probably more along the lines of the reasoning behind magical item pricing.

A +2 enhancement item to a stat is 4k, +4 is 16k, +6 is 36k.

Having more in a single place means whatever you base off of that is stronger.

Multiple things are like this. More of a single type of thing and the price tends to increase dramatically, even though technically each point has the same overall 'value' as every other point.

That and I suppose it is a cost for specializing. You are stonger in one area, but it hurts in other areas.

 

[Christian]

isn't that what a +2 to dex and -2 to con does anyway? A +2 dex applied to a 14 makes it a 16, which is like getting 4 point buy points. A -2 con applied to a 14 gives a 12 which is only a 2 penalty. It is easier in the current system to make the +2 worth more then the -2 which is exactly why we don't see abilitiy scores of -1/+1. Making the modifiers actually point buy numbers fixes this.

That's exactly the difference ... Consider a character with these stats: Str 13 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 10. This is a 28 point-buy character. An elf with these stats, though is only a 26 point character, because it's easier to buy up your Dex for an elf, with the +2 bonus. Reverse the Dex and Con, and this is now a 30-point elf, because the -2 Con makes it harder to buy a high Con for a character of that race.

Now, under your proposal, where elves get +4 point-buy points to Dex and -4 to Con, this character is 28 points, regardless of whether you put the 16 in Dex and the 12 in Con or vice-versa. The only potential difference is in the minimums and maximums-an elf could have a maximum Dex of 19, and a minimum Con of 4 (presumably-the point-buy charts need to be extended for this system). But for nearly all characters, these bonuses and penalties will be irrelevant; within the range of 8-18 scores, it's not easier for an elf to have a high Dex, or harder to have a high Con, than any other race.

 

[Crothian]

But for nearly all characters, these bonuses and penalties will be irrelevant; within the range of 8-18 scores, it's not easier for an elf to have a high Dex, or harder to have a high Con, than any other race.

The goal isn't to make it easier for elves to have a very high dex, but it will make all elves have at least a 12 dex and on average they will have a higher dex. Conversely, they will average a lower con. The idea is that it stops demi humans from getting the super high scores but at the same still causes them to still have higher scores in the low end.