D&D 5E Taking point buy to the next level

[Azul]

This is an interesting twist on point-buy. I'd be curious to see how it worked, if my group used point-buy. However, we won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Our experience shows that it produces dull heavily optimized characters little flavour. Maybe it's just how we use it. Our group uses the "organic" method (4d6 six times to fixed stats, one reroll, one swap -- it gives a high overall average but often includes an interesting an unexpected flaw).

 

[Crothian]

This is an interesting twist on point-buy. I'd be curious to see how it worked, if my group used point-buy. However, we won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Our experience shows that it produces dull heavily optimized characters little flavour. Maybe it's just how we use it. Our group uses the "organic" method (4d6 six times to fixed stats, one reroll, one swap -- it gives a high overall average but often includes an interesting an unexpected flaw).

I have found that point buy creates dull heavy optimized characters when players choose to create dull fully optimized characters with it. I used to think like you, but I've discovered point buy doesn't have to do that if the player doesn't want it to.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I know the point buy system increases of increments of (current ability bonus, min 1). I suppose you are extending that to higher levels?

I.e.

14 = 6
15 = 8 (two more, since a 14 gives a +2 bonus)
16 = 10 (two more, since a 15 gives a +2 bonus)
17 = 13 (three more, since a 16 gives a +3 bonus)
18 = 16 (etc.)
19 = 20
20 = 24
21 = 29
22 = 34
23 = 40

Your 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 awards give 25 points over 20 levels, enough to turn an initial 18 into a 23. Which exactly duplicates the current system.

 

[ARandomGod]

Well, first of all I absoultly hate the "you are not a hero" type of point buy. I want to play a hero! Whereas I completely approve of point buy in general, as long as it doesn't punish you for having higher scores.

Secondly, the +2/-2 to attributes already factor in the point buy system. Amplifies the bonus/minus considerably. It makes a race with a +2 to a stat much much more likely to have a 16. But only as likely to have a 20 as another 'normal' for that stat race will have an 18.

Doing this addition to the system would greatly penalize the +2/-2 system. It's not nearly the benifit... They specifically state that in point buy you apply the racial modifier after buying stat points for a reason. And that reason is to make the racial mods make a bigger difference.

It would have the benifit of making the races less special, and human an even more obvious choice, so if that's what you're going for, this will do it.

 

[ARandomGod]

I have found that point buy creates dull heavy optimized characters when players choose to create dull fully optimized characters with it. I used to think like you, but I've discovered point buy doesn't have to do that if the player doesn't want it to.

But it does "enforce stereotypes". As a mage you HAVE to get your INT up to 18 (well, only if you want to be effective, I admit). And so there are no strong mages when you have to sacrifice so very much to get your attributes up.

I've found, on the other hand, that a corresponding point buy that doesn't punish players for buying one stat up high will generally lead to better balances, less dull and stereotypical players.

You're right as a whole, the point buy system doesn't force the creation of dull, heavily optimized characters. Players do that... having the spirit beaten out of them by an unloving system... But the system does force people who want to be heroes to be dull, stereotypical heroes. Of course, you can take that dull creation and put a shine to it. You CAN enjoy your mage with a strength of 8. But the option to have a well rounded yet heroic character is taken away by the "You will be punished for attempting to be a hero" point buy system in the DMG.

 

[Crothian]

Well, first of all I absoultly hate the "you are not a hero" type of point buy. I want to play a hero! Whereas I completely approve of point buy in general, as long as it doesn't punish you for having higher scores.

A hero is not determined by their ability scores. Sure, it might be easier in this game to succeed with straight 18's but isn't it more fun and more challenging to be victorious with someone that does not have a huge advantage?

 

[Felnar]

my group is using a similar system
we still get a straight +1 to a stat at levels 4,8,12,etc
but we also get one point-buy point on all the other 'even' levels (2,6,10,etc)

this way you could pump up one stat as high as possible, but
usually a smarter option is using the straight +1's for you 'main' stat
and using the point-buy points to bring up low stats
that was the original intent anyway

to comment of your system:
i feel the +4/-4 acts strangely because of point-buys sliding scale
it dampens/magnifys the stat mods
i'd stick with the straight +2/-2 after point-buy

 

[Nifft]

"You will be punished for attempting to be a hero" point buy system in the DMG.

Yeah! Because if Frodo hadn't gotten all those 18's, he would have sucked!

-- N

 

[Christian]

Yeah! Because if Frodo hadn't gotten all those 18's, he would have sucked!

-- N

Bah. If Frodo's DM hadn't been fudging rolls, he never would have made it to Rivendell with those pansy stats.

 

[Bastoche]

currently we use something like that in my game, although a bit different.

Every level you get point but points equal to the level you just gained (so when you hit level 2 you get 2 more, level 3 you get 3 more, etc), you can save up extra ones for later if you like.

high scores are prohibitively expensive (the point buy chart keeps going up normally) so most characters will wind up having one or two decently high scores (by this I mean high 20's to low 30's) or a bunch of mid range stats (again, by this I mean around 16 to mid 20's).

There are no spells or items that give enhancement bonus to stats, although you can still get inherant bonuses.

When you first make your character the race gives you the appropriate bonuses, but thereafter you treat the score as though it is what it is.


So far it has worked out very nicely. I have one character who is going for shooting a single stat up as high as possible and everyone else is trying to focus on about 3 stats each.

At high levels focusing on a single stat works out about the same as a normal game does with its +5 from a level and a +6 item so it havent been any 'getting a higher stat than normal' problems, it also takes a lot of focusing to do it.

To me it makes the characters feel more like 'heros', especially later on. Around level 10 to 12 most brought all of their low scores up a point or two..

It is interesting

I like this idea a lot!!!!

As for the original poster's idea: I disagree about the +2/-2 -> +4/-4 point buy. Because there's a compromise there and an important one. Typically racial bonuses suggest a player to have a "sucky" score in something that is usually important (like con for instance) in order to get a score he couldn't really afford with point buy as a human. With point buy, you rarely, if ever, see an 18 score at first level. Most settle for a 16 to even out the other scores (typically to get as less 8 or 9 as possible). Other races can make it to a 18 buy sacrifying another score.

As for the gained point changed to point buy, the number of points given should grow with level (example: 4 at 4th, 6 at 8th, 8 at 12th and so on) in order to get higher scores required for some high level feat (improved and greater two weapon fighting comes to mind).