D&D 5E Taking point buy to the next level

[Fenris]

One thing that always bothers me about point buy is it is just a used in character creation, and then it is forgotten. What if instead of gaining +1 attrbutes every fourth level you got points for point buy? What if instead of getting +2/-2 for race attributes you got bonus minuses to the point buy?

So, I purpose the following, instead of gaining +1 to an attbute every fourth level instead people gain 3 ponts to increase attributes using the point buy system. It would allow lower attributes to be increased faster but hamper higher attributes. Players can also save the points for higher level. Each time an attribute gain happens the player gets one more point so 4 points at 8, 5 at 12, 6 at 16, and 7 at 20.

Races would get +4 point buy, -4 point buy. This would allow for higher average scores but stop the races from starting with extremely high scores ie a 20. The negative 4 point buy would be prettyy bad as if no points were placed in it it would be a 4, but I like that lower stats would then be able to be gotten using point buy.

I won't get into the racial mod issue. Some have a problem there, but it isn't integral to your main point I think. You could go either way with it.

But I like the idea of adding point buy points at levels. Another idea would be simply to give one point a level. That would give 19 points at 20th level as opposed to your 25 so not much of a difference. I think that would encourage the raising of low stats early on, but players would begin socking those points away for later. The disadvantage is that it would be more bookkeeping, but I can envision players having "saved up" for that 18, suddenly finding that this other stat could use some bulking up as well and right now. Just an option. This is an interesting idea.

 

[Christian]

Well, I'd say you at least need a 15 to get a 19 at 20th level to access the highest spell levels. And a 16 if you want to cast them as soon as you reach the level to cast 9th level spells. Of course, an headband of intellect might be just enough to start up with a 13. I've never seen anyone starting with a 18 using 32 point buy system and 18 at standard 4d6 drop lowest "not that often" shows one up.

Actually, just a 14 to get 9th level spells at 20th level, or a 15 to get them at 17th. (15 start, 16 at 4th level, 17 at 8th level, 18 at 12th level, 19 at 16th level-just in time!) Casters are only slightly more dependent on a single high attribute than noncasters.

 

[ARandomGod]

A hero is not determined by their ability scores. Sure, it might be easier in this game to succeed with straight 18's but isn't it more fun and more challenging to be victorious with someone that does not have a huge advantage?

I disagree, a hero, while not defined soley by ability scores, is indeed in large part defined by having those scores as a base. THE best is different than "ok". Sure, an ok person gan be fun and challenging.... but now you're asking for fun and challenge, not a hero! And my suggested system doesn't penalize what you are listing as your prefered method, why would you insist on penalizing mine?

As for "a huge advantage"... I've played against plenty of monsters who had better than an 18 as a base ability score.

I've never seen anyone starting with a 18 using 32 point buy system and 18 at standard 4d6 drop lowest "not that often" shows one up.

Interesting... I've never seen anyone playing a mage or sorc using a 25 or higher point buy system (the lowest I've vowed I'd ever play) NOT come to the table with an 18... The one time I did it barely counts because we were given the option to roll and then point buy if you scrap the rolled character, and I kept the roll (which had only a 17 to put in int).


Ahem... the points at levels does seem an interesting one, but one I'd have to look at with a more detailed eye than I'm prepared to go into at the moment. I will say that I've seen systems that had a gradual progression of ability stats and no stat modifier items, and it was fun. As long as everyone get's 'em, and at least some opponents do too, it's all good.

 

[Crothian]

I disagree, a hero, while not defined soley by ability scores, is indeed in large part defined by having those scores as a base. THE best is different than "ok". Sure, an ok person gan be fun and challenging.... but now you're asking for fun and challenge, not a hero! And my suggested system doesn't penalize what you are listing as your prefered method, why would you insist on penalizing mine?

As for "a huge advantage"... I've played against plenty of monsters who had better than an 18 as a base ability score.

I still don't see how this penalizes anything, but of course monsters have higher then 18's, that's not even an issue here. Unless you think that a character has to have attributes higher then what they are facing, otherwise I don't see the point of monsters attributes.

A hero is just any character that goes off and becomes successful in adventures. You can do that with a character with straight 18's and you can do that with a character of straights 10's. Attributes do not make a hero.

 

[Bastoche]

I still don't see how this penalizes anything, but of course monsters have higher then 18's, that's not even an issue here. Unless you think that a character has to have attributes higher then what they are facing, otherwise I don't see the point of monsters attributes.

A hero is just any character that goes off and becomes successful in adventures. You can do that with a character with straight 18's and you can do that with a character of straights 10's. Attributes do not make a hero.

Yeah. IMO a "hero" is simply someone who has more levels than the average guy. I'm not against the idea of having a 2 level point buy system IE the players has 32 point and the average guy has 30 or 28 or even less, making the PC (as heros) being more susceptible to gain more levels than their peers, but you do not need 40 points or 4d6 reroll all 1s drop lowest, etc scores to be "heros".

Anyway, there's as many different definitions of "hero" as there is of any of the nine alignments as there is of what is good "role-playing", etc, etc and I don't want to open that can of worm. My point is that the PCs don't need a 14 average scores to be better than the typical "commoner". Only 1-4 points more in a point buy system is enough IMO.

 

[ARandomGod]

I still don't see how this penalizes anything, but of course monsters have higher then 18's, that's not even an issue here. Unless you think that a character has to have attributes higher then what they are facing, otherwise I don't see the point of monsters attributes.

I'm not certain what you're refering to about not penalizing anything... the non-linear point buy style penalizes the overall modifier score of a character who chooses to have an ability score higher than 14, as opposed to the linear style I was referring to, which does not penalize either playstyle... styles who still want to stay under 14 still get the exact same spread, and styles that want a higher score don't get the penalty that's built into the system.

The point of meantioning monster attributes was my response to what I interpreted you as saying in the statement:

"...but isn't it more fun and more challenging to be victorious with someone that does not have a huge advantage?"

You seemed to me to be saying that someone with an 18 in an ability score has a huge advantage... I still say that there are plenty of times when that's a huge disadvantage. And I'll add here that the relative advantage/disadvantage is still just as easy to adjust. If you think a 25 point buy gives characters a huge advantage, lower the point by to 10. (If you can convince players to play that!)

A hero is just any character that goes off and becomes successful in adventures. You can do that with a character with straight 18's and you can do that with a character of straights 10's. Attributes do not make a hero.

True, a "hero" can be a huge coward to whom interesting events play out in a certain way completely due to luck. However certainly isn't Conan, or Merlin, or even Robin Hood... He's not Arnold Swartzenegger's character in any number of films, he's not James Bond. He's one of the character's in "American Pie". He's the 'normal' guy who studies hard and learns his trade. Sure, that can be a fun game too. But that's not everyone's fun game.

 

[Scion]

When I think 'hero' I usually think of it in the classical sense, they have something major that sets them apart. Nominally, again in the classical sense, they are the child of a god and a mortal.

Hence, Hero. Something greater than man but still shy of the gods.

I think of the common man as generally, but not always having levels in npc classes and having a lower point buy.

Heros are people who stand out. They have a drive that others lack, abilities that others lack, or some sort of spark that sets them apart. They have the potential to be heroic.

In my games I simulate this with a higher point buy, better/more gear (pc wealth instead of npc wealth), and sometimes things just come their way.

They can choose to be a hero or not, of whatever alignment or not, of whatever character class they like. But they still have the potential that many lack.

 

[Crothian]

They can choose to be a hero or not, of whatever alignment or not, of whatever character class they like. But they still have the potential that many lack.

One might say that all the potentil the character needs is to be controled by a player. But this is relaly siude tracking.

So, back to the point buy topic of the thread. If you don't like point buy, then this thread is not for you. The thread is for people looking to use point buy in additional areas of the game and how we can do that.

 

[Scion]

One might say that all the potentil the character needs is to be controled by a player.

how can the player control potential? They can control 'actions' but not 'what the dm has in store'

Of course, my definition was that 'all' pcs have this built in, but most npcs do not. That is all.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I like this idea.

In order to make it work, though, and taking into account that stat-boosting items won't be available, we would need to figure out what is the average point-buy value of stats for a "normal" D&D character.

I was thinking that we could use the NPCs statted in the DMG, but they're probably equipped with NPC-value equipment, so the figures would end up lower than for PCs

Anyone have an idea?

AR