The 216 Club

the Jester

Legend
I favor rolling for stats; I'd like it if 3d6 in order was a reasonable option, but it always ends up generating a couple of pcs with no stat about 12 in a decent-sized party. So my game uses 4d6-drop-one.

I understand people who don't like rolling because you might end up with wonky stats; however, that's exactly why I do like it. I'm a fan of 'roll in order', since it pushes people to make a character based on their stats rather than to arrange stats based on their concept, but that's a total matter of playstyle choice. I wouldn't want to impose it on others who don't want to use it (except maybe those who are playing in my campaign! -but even then I almost always allow a player to arrange to taste).

Adventurers are a "cut above" and I wouldn't expect their ability scores to reflect those of the population. They're not randomly picked out of villages and cities, nor are they drafted; they specifically choose to become adventurers. Adventurers with "random stats" make about as much sense as police officers with random stats.

This is only true for some playstyles. While those seem to be fairly prevalent, they certainly aren't the only playstyles out there, and there are definitely exceptions.

In my own campaign, for instance, adventurers aren't necessarily anyone special until they've gained a few levels and achieved a little notoriety. The npc blacksmith or farmer or porter might well have stats just as good as a pc- though it's not especially likely, it's possible for an npc to have stats way better than any pc. (I custom-stat npcs most of the time rather than rolling them up; some good examples might include a major villain, a legendary hero, the high priest of a major religion, the in-game equivalent of an Olympian athlete, etc.
 

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Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
I favor rolling for stats; I'd like it if 3d6 in order was a reasonable option, but it always ends up generating a couple of pcs with no stat about 12 in a decent-sized party. So my game uses 4d6-drop-one.

I've usually played with 4d6 drop the lowest, myself. Though Like some of the alternatives I've seen, such as 6 + 2d6. Though, perhaps the simplest option is to grant each PC a 15, and then have them roll 3d6 for the rest.
 

the Jester

Legend
I've usually played with 4d6 drop the lowest, myself. Though Like some of the alternatives I've seen, such as 6 + 2d6.

As a player and a dm, I find a stat generation method that eliminates the chances of having a 3 disheartening. Some of the most memorable pcs I've played or dmed have had 3s (or sometimes even worse- there have been two pcs in my campaign with a stat of 1 over the years).
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I am also a fan of rolling stats!
If I roll poor stats, it's time to be brave. More challenges, more fun!
If I roll good stats, it's time to use them as a safety net while trying some odd character choices. Still more fun!

But as a DM, I wouldn't impose that to the players, at least because I do not want to hear anybody whining for months "I can't play with these stats, I am so unlucky...".

I would also be totally favorable to roll-stats-in-order in very lethal old-school games of D&D, short campaigns or when starting off with a new edition. But in more regular gaming, roll-stats-in-order has the risk ending up having to play too many similar characters in a row.

Adventurers are a "cut above" and I wouldn't expect their ability scores to reflect those of the population. They're not randomly picked out of villages and cities, nor are they drafted; they specifically choose to become adventurers. Adventurers with "random stats" make about as much sense as police officers with random stats.

Meh... this is the most popular view, and it's fine.

But I prefer to think that a character becomes a hero because of what she does rather than because of what she was born. IMHO it's even more "educational". Remember the old saying about success being 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration? I prefer the characters in my games of D&D being very "perspirating" :)
 

Ainamacar

Adventurer
The big complaint about rolling stats is usually the large variance between characters. That arises naturally from the roll used to determine each ability score, but it is also enhanced because each ability score is rolled independently. We can clamp down on the variance for each score (e.g. using 2d6+6 instead of 3d6) but we can also limit the (actual or apparent) independence between scores in order to shape the distribution, yet we rarely see the latter explicitly in rolling variants. Compare to point buy, where both the randomness and independence of ability scores is removed.

I just mused for a few minutes and came up with what might be a new mechanic based on the idea of Markov chains, which the mathematically inclined might recognize. The basic idea is that the roll used to determine the next ability score is determined by the total ability modifier of scores already rolled, but we don't care about how we got that modifier or what it was at previous steps. There are lots of ways to go about that process, but here is one that creates an average character similar to 4d6 drop lowest but with much smaller variance between characters.

Let i be the number of ability scores already rolled, and k be the total ability score modifier of the existing ability scores. For the next ability score you roll 3d6 plus bonus dice equal to (i-k) if i-k>0, and keep the best 3. (For people who have traditionally liked to roll scores in order, which roll corresponds to which ability score should be randomized so that Strength, for example, isn't always just a 3d6.)

Here is a typical example showing (i-k) and the rolls.
Roll 1: (0-0)=0, so roll 3d6. Get 11.
Roll 2: (1-0)=1 so roll 4d6. Get 13.
Roll 3: (2-1)=1 so roll 4d6. Get 17.
Roll 4: (3-4)=-1 so roll 3d6. Get 8.
Roll 5: (4-3)=1 so roll 4d6. Get 10.
Roll 6: (5-3)=2 so roll 5d6. Get 16.
This is a perfectly playable character with a total ability score mod of +6.

Here's a list of 100 characters generated using this method.
[sblock]
Code:
7    18   12   9    11   10
6    12   15   14   14   12
8    15   15   12   11   11
16   9    16   17   10   10
10   10   13   12   11   13
13   13   7    11   14   11
11   11   14   15   8    10
8    15   10   13   10   13
12   8    14   14   13   10
12   10   12   11   11   13
8    16   12   12   11   15
10   11   15   15   17   13
12   9    15   13   13   15
6    15   16   6    14   14
11   13   12   13   16   12
10   15   11   8    17   13
6    15   11   17   8    14
10   15   10   12   4    16
14   13   14   13   9    8
10   17   14   9    10   14
8    12   16   13   15   15
10   15   9    10   13   15
5    14   14   12   10   14
12   6    12   13   16   12
13   13   14   6    13   16
10   13   7    16   14   14
9    13   15   11   11   15
13   9    15   16   9    15
11   13   12   12   14   9
8    6    14   17   13   15
17   9    9    16   9    13
11   8    13   9    17   6
10   10   10   12   17   15
8    16   15   12   14   8
15   10   11   14   7    17
11   13   14   9    10   14
12   14   13   12   12   12
9    11   15   15   13   13
7    14   11   17   7    15
9    14   12   12   12   14
9    10   15   14   14   9
8    17   9    13   12   16
14   9    12   7    14   18
14   13   10   10   18   16
14   9    7    16   17   8
12   12   13   13   10   12
14   3    10   16   16   6
7    18   9    14   10   16
4    12   14   14   8    16
14   4    18   9    16   7
13   16   9    8    11   12
10   10   13   15   12   10
10   18   13   7    15   15
6    11   16   17   11   9
15   17   8    9    15   7
11   7    18   10   12   13
7    14   14   15   7    11
11   11   16   7    16   12
6    16   15   11   12   12
12   14   11   11   14   6
10   15   9    15   14   12
15   12   9    14   10   11
9    16   14   12   5    15
9    11   14   16   3    18
15   10   13   11   10   9
15   12   6    18   8    17
8    13   16   7    17   13
17   11   10   9    16   9
14   6    9    18   12   13
8    7    11   13   17   15
8    9    13   15   15   6
10   14   14   17   14   13
9    16   9    13   14   12
11   11   16   11   13   8
10   13   15   9    17   11
9    16   9    9    16   15
7    16   16   17   16   8
8    16   5    14   16   13
9    12   14   9    17   17
16   8    11   5    16   17
8    11   12   15   16   9
10   10   14   15   15   13
15   5    14   12   17   11
10   8    13   13   10   13
9    15   13   13   14   10
17   11   13   13   16   10
8    11   13   12   10   18
4    15   7    16   14   13
5    15   15   16   10   14
12   13   7    13   15   9
11   9    17   12   15   10
5    12   14   16   12   10
6    15   13   11   18   4
11   15   11   14   15   11
7    18   9    14   13   9
13   12   10   9    17   14
12   14   7    12   12   10
7    16   13   9    16   9
9    16   10   11   17   13
10   15   9    14   13   11
[/sblock]

As you can see, the first roll is always 3d6, but the second roll could be as high as 8d6 if the player rolls a 3. A player rolling decently will almost never see any bonus dice, while a character rolling poorly is likely to end up with a few high scores by the end. The conceit is that the average character will average about +1 in each ability score, similar to 4d6. Strictly speaking a character could have 3s in every stat, but to do so the player must roll 3+8+13+18+23+28=93 ones in a row, and it will just never happen. Despite this suppression of low scores there really isn't any enhancement of high scores compared to straight 3d6 rolling. This method has an average total ability modifier of about 4.75 with a standard deviation of about 1.7. Compare that to 4d6 drop lowest, which has average total ability modifier of about 5.25 with a standard deviation of about 3.5. The distribution of maximum score minus minimum score (a quick and dirty measurement of how "interesting" a character is) is basically the same for all 3 methods. So this method doesn't really address the problem of rolling "boring" characters with no real strengths or weaknesses.

(Math nerds might appreciate this, though: the standard deviation of the ability modifier for a single ability score is about 1.5 for 3d6, and 1.44 for 4d6 drop lowest, and we can simply multiply by sqrt(6) to find the standard deviation for the sum of ability score modifiers if all scores are independent and rolled using the same method. That is, about 3.7 and 3.5, respectively. The Markov chain method above gives a standard deviation on the sum of about 1.7, meaning we have suppressed nearly all the variance introduced by the summation of 6 random variables using traditional rolling methods to the variance of just slightly greater than that of a single 3d6 or 4d6 roll.)

Lots of variants are possible, or course, and one can target different power levels (or if you prefer, the "population" from which the character is assumed to have been selected from) by changing how bonus dice are given out. One could even penalize characters that are doing too well (e.g. roll 4d6 keep lowest 3), although I think keeping things bonus-oriented feels less coercive. Any method that tweaks the probabilities back toward the mean, however, will tend to suppress the variance of traditional rolling methods. The approach introduced above, however, keeps the familiar flavor of roll nd6, keep 3.
 
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n00bdragon

First Post
This thread assumes that adventuring parties are composed of purely random people, which is a horrible assumption. Sure, only one in 2000 some odd people has an 18 strength, but what are the odds of say... an average soldier having an 18 strength? How about a crack team of paramilitary commandos?

Assuming characters are not, quite literally, random people off the street and there's some self-selection bias going on in the career field of "adventuring" I think a 15 or 16 is probably a MINIMUM for the primary stat of your chosen class.

You also are looking at the extreme end of the dice in the 1/216 number. The chances of having an 18 in a particular stat are indeed 0.463%. The chances of having a 17 though are much better, 1.389%. A 16 or better is a whopping 4.63% (again, of the general population for a specific given score, the probability that any given person has at least a 16 in something is quite good). Combine this all with the self-selection bias above and it's quite silly to play a fighter with less than 16 strength or a wizard with less intelligence.

This all ignores the fact that 3d6 is by no means a proper way to explain the variance between various attributes of people. It is a ridiculous abstraction and oversimplification. To read into it as some sort of law for how human attributes are actually distributed is absurd.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
This all ignores the fact that 3d6 is by no means a proper way to explain the variance between various attributes of people. It is a ridiculous abstraction and oversimplification. To read into it as some sort of law for how human attributes are actually distributed is absurd.
I agree with everything else you said in principle, but I actually disagree with this assertion. Normal distributions are common in nature. A lot of the research done on human attributes assumes that those attributes form a bell curve. 3d6 is definitely an abstraction and one that simplifies things greatly for the purposes of making the game playable, but I don't think it's that bad.

I do agree with your idea about self-selection. Given that a significant number of high-Str characters exist, it would be foolish for anyone with moderate strength to take up a martial profession. The same applies down the board. People with average ability scores either don't try to learn magic and combat and fight monsters, or they get killed when they do. Adventurers are naturally elite.
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
Let i be the number of ability scores already rolled, and k be the total ability score modifier of the existing ability scores. For the next ability score you roll 3d6 plus bonus dice equal to (i-k) if i-k>0, and keep the best 3. (For people who have traditionally liked to roll scores in order, which roll corresponds to which ability score should be randomized so that Strength, for example, isn't always just a 3d6.)

Here is a typical example showing (i-k) and the rolls.
Roll 1: (0-0)=0, so roll 3d6. Get 11.
Roll 2: (1-0)=1 so roll 4d6. Get 13.
Roll 3: (2-1)=1 so roll 4d6. Get 17.
Roll 4: (3-4)=-1 so roll 3d6. Get 8.
Roll 5: (4-3)=1 so roll 4d6. Get 10.
Roll 6: (5-3)=2 so roll 5d6. Get 16.
This is a perfectly playable character with a total ability score mod of +6.

While absurdly complex, it's mathmatically awesome.
 

Ainamacar

Adventurer
Is it absurdly complex? I mean, it's way easier than combat, and I don't think it's harder than point buy. But I have a high tolerance for math shenanigans.

Is it any better if explicitly presented as a single value to track that changes after every roll? Have some number that starts at 0. If that number is greater than 0 roll that many extra dice. After every roll add 1 to the number and subtract the ability mod of the new roll. Same outcome, maybe less difficult to understand? The example in my first post would then be.

Roll 1: #=0, so roll 3d6. Get 11. #=0+1-0=1
Roll 2: #=1, so roll 4d6. Get 13. #=1+1-1=1
Roll 3: #=1, so roll 4d6. Get 17. #=1+1-3=-1
Roll 4: #=-1, so roll 3d6. Get 8. #=-1+1-(-1)=1
Roll 5: #=1, so roll 4d6. Get 10. #=1+1-0=2
Roll 6: #=2, so roll 5d6. Get 16.

I guess I can see subtracting negative numbers being an issue, especially for younger gamers. I remember finding that mind-bending (albeit in an awesome way) early in elementary school.
 
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Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
Is it absurdly complex? I mean, it's way easier than combat, and I don't think it's harder than point buy. But I have a high tolerance for math shenanigans.

Is it any better if explicitly presented as a single value to track that changes after every roll? Have some number that starts at 0. If that number is greater than 0 roll that many extra dice. After every roll add 1 to the number and subtract the ability mod of the new roll. Same outcome, maybe less difficult to understand? The example in my first post would then be.

Roll 1: #=0, so roll 3d6. Get 11. #=0+1-0=1
Roll 2: #=1, so roll 4d6. Get 13. #=1+1-1=1
Roll 3: #=1, so roll 4d6. Get 17. #=1+1-3=-1
Roll 4: #=-1, so roll 3d6. Get 8. #=-1+1-(-1)=1
Roll 5: #=1, so roll 4d6. Get 10. #=1+1-0=2
Roll 6: #=2, so roll 5d6. Get 16.

I guess I can see subtracting negative numbers being an issue, especially for younger gamers. I remember finding that mind-bending (albeit in an awesome way) early in elementary school.

The first go around is cleaner. It's too complex because it requires the tracking of how many rolls you've made, what your bonus is, subtracting, and then interpreting, all before you can make another roll, which then requires the removal of dice and the adding of the results.

While you or I wouldn't have a problem with that, there are plenty of players who aren't even comfortable with doing basic addition in their head.

Nonetheless, the method is pretty awesome.
 

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