The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[BryonD]

Going above 20th level isn't even possible without a supplementary book (as others have pained to point out). BoVD is not an Epic Level supplement, it is a core supplement, and they are meant to be challenging to core characters.

Is it unreasonable then to expect the two books to at least be compatible?

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Is it unreasonable then to expect the two books to at least be compatible?

They are! Just add more levels on to your demon lords, or advance them by hit dice, or whatever, and give them some epic feats. Seems simple enough to me.

 

[greymarch]

Not every demon-lord and arch-devil in the BoVD has a SR equal to his CR + 13. I still need to know Orcus's actual spell resistance. I also have two other questions:

1. What is Orcus's Armor class?
2. What is Orcus's Hit points?

I am confused about how specific the BoVD is when it comes to modifying the demon-lords and archdevils into divine powers. Does the book give specific stats for Orcus as a divine power, or for Asmodeus? Does the DM have to use abstract rules presented in the BoVD to modify these demonlords himself? I know that a playtest version of the BoVD Asmodeus was floating around the internet several months ago, and that playtest version had Asmodeus written as a normal archdevil, and as a divine power.

You see, my gaming group has considered Orcus our number one enemy for over 11 years now. Our characters are from level 22 to 30, and we are using the Epic Rules. I am concerned that Orcus will not be a challenge for an epic level group, and my gaming group is VERY hesitant to modify any official NPC.

In the Forgotten Realms, Orcus is considered a god (a lesser god IIRC), so he should be tougher in the Forgotten Realms than in other places. I hope the BoVD has specific stats for Orcus as a divine power.

 

[Psion]

Not for levels, but this doesn't hold true for monster HD.

D&D is not a game of solars against evil. D&D is a game of mortals against evil.

I don't think demon lords should have made any more easily winnable, than advanced solars, titans or greatest dragons. In fact, they should be IMO more powerful, or at least equal to the most powerful.

If you want to put them so far beyond player capability, then you don't really need stats for them. The book has stats for players who will use them.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

If that is what you want, use what we had before: unstatted demon lords.

Going above 20th level isn't even possible without a supplementary book (as others have pained to point out). BoVD is not an Epic Level supplement, it is a core supplement, and they are meant to be challenging to core characters.



Well, I think you all know how I feel about Union sentinels. Basically, it was obviously conceived someone as free uber-levels as you seem to be. You are both don't put 20th level in the proper perspective AFAIAC.

Nobody in my game is over 9th at the moment, and I don't plan on using the ELH if they get that far. My question about thier power level is more of a conceptual thing. I just thought they would be more powerful, even if they weren't going to use epic stuff. These guys rule planes of existance ya know. I'm certainly not bashing the book. Just my thoughts.

 

[Psion]

Is it unreasonable then to expect the two books to at least be compatible?

How are they not compatible? They both use the same baseline rules. It's just that the BoVD does not assume you have or will be using the ELH -- which is the current norm for WotC books (I think WOtC are being a bit conservative with this line, but at least they included psionic creatures in the MMII...)

 

[The Serge]

I am confused about how specific the BoVD is when it comes to modifying the demon-lords and archdevils into divine powers. Does the book give specific stats for Orcus as a divine power, or for Asmodeus? Does the DM have to use abstract rules presented in the BoVD to modify these demonlords himself? I know that a playtest version of the BoVD Asmodeus was floating around the internet several months ago, and that playtest version had Asmodeus written as a normal archdevil, and as a divine power.

You see, my gaming group has considered Orcus our number one enemy for over 11 years now. Our characters are from level 22 to 30, and we are using the Epic Rules. I am concerned that Orcus will not be a challenge for an epic level group, and my gaming group is VERY hesitant to modify any official NPC.

In the Forgotten Realms, Orcus is considered a god (a lesser god IIRC), so he should be tougher in the Forgotten Realms than in other places. I hope the BoVD has specific stats for Orcus as a divine power.

If I've been reading and understanding the reviews thus far, it sounds like there are suggestions for Domain access for these guys. I would assume, then, that if this is the case, they can, in certain situations, grant spells. I would imagine that the book will have stats for the non-divine and quasi-divine archfiends, and then one could create a god from that information... since quasi-divine beings don't provide spells to worshippers.

Of course, I couuld be wrong.

 

[RobNJ]

my gaming group is VERY hesitant to modify any official NPC.

Why? This would seem to be the core problem. What's so sacrosanct about an official NPC?

If anything I'd think official NPCs are the most in need of alteration, since players can get their hands on the stats and make assumptions their characters have no way of making.

 

[Psion]

Nobody in my game is over 9th at the moment, and I don't plan on using the ELH if they get that far.

Okay, that leads me to beleive that your objections lie in realms more esoteric and practical, and leads me to beleive that you wouldn't be using the stats in the book in either case.

My question about thier power level is more of a conceptual thing. I just thought they would be more powerful, even if they weren't going to use epic stuff. These guys rule planes of existance ya know. I'm certainly not bashing the book. Just my thoughts.

And we are back to "doesn't 20th level mean anything anymore?" You wouldn't think the power of a 24th -- or 32nd -- level character sufficient to be a planar ruler? I would.

 

[The Serge]

If you want to put them so far beyond player capability, then you don't really need stats for them. The book has stats for players who will use them.

In the same way there are stats for gods? They qualify as being "far beyond player capability" in many minds and there are still stats for them.

I think it's very possible to have these beings as epic level entities that are god-like, but not necessarily gods (although I don't agree with this position personally). And, let's face it, this book was written with ELH in mind; Bruce Cordell and Monte Cook admitted as much. Technically, a party of four 32nd level characters should be able to beat Asmodeus with little fuss and that just makes no sense.

No, these guys should have a higher CR than all beings in the ELH... Heck, Elminister has a CR higher than most of these guys, and that's ridiculous!