The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Psion]

So what is Orcus's spell resistance? I have been trying to get someone to answer this question for 3 days now!

Earlier in the thread, people said:

Orcus' CR is 28.

SR generally follows CR+13.

If you do the math, that give an SR of 41.

HTH

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Here are some questions, what are some of the demon lords/archdevils that were mentioned in the book but not given stats? Are there any mentions on Anthraxus, Fraz-Ublu, Zuggytmoy, Pazuzu/Pazrael, General of Gehenna, Pale Night, and so on?

Are any of the pictures in the book at the same level of twisted as a picture from WW's revised Tzimisce Clanbook, where they show a picture of a female vampire with a big tooth filled mouth with tentacles for a crotch standing over a male victim?

 

[johnnype]

Can we get a listing of the prestige classes included in the book? A brief description would also help if possible.

As far as power levels are concerned, I would like to remind everyone that it's never as easy as teleporting into the demon's bedroom at night and slicing his head off. Chances are that he/ she is always well protected in his keep and not easily accesible by roaming adventurers. By the time your average party gets to hunt down someone like Grazzt they are ususaly well below their max HP's and part of their spell capacity has been used up. In addition, it's largely up to the DM to determine how difficult it is for the party to acomplish what the they want.

Anyone remember that letter to Forum in Dragon magazine all those years ago about the killer kobolds wiping the street with the PC's?

 

[Psion]

Given that PC's reach 20th level pretty fast, hell it can be only a couple of years in game time, I would think these "cosmic entities" would be a little more imposing.

If that is what you want, use what we had before: unstatted demon lords.

Going above 20th level isn't even possible without a supplementary book (as others have pained to point out). BoVD is not an Epic Level supplement, it is a core supplement, and they are meant to be challenging to core characters.

It seems to me that a party would have cleaned their clocks long ago. They could barely get work as gate guards in the city of Union out of the ELH!

Well, I think you all know how I feel about Union sentinels. Basically, it was obviously conceived someone as free uber-levels as you seem to be. You are both don't put 20th level in the proper perspective AFAIAC.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

The loss of power of archfiend seems in line, IMHO, with the loss of power of deities, so that is, at least, consistent with itself.

Hehheee. Very true.


I know WotC makes almost every book out of basis, that only core rules are used. But D&D 3rd has been around for quite a some time, and rule balance is not what it used to be.

But I don't mind that. What bothers be, is that IMO their power lv. is too low, when compared to Great Dragons or Solars, etc, especially if you follow ideas of WotC's Fight Club and give them character levels and thus up their CR.

Nah, my issue has a lot to do with feeling.

Maybe it is something similar I experienced a long time ago, I saw people playing clerics with higher wisdom stats, than their gods.

Or what I experience everytime, stats are given to movie/book characters.

I just think, it would be cool, to see stats I can agree to and use without second thought, but I probably never will see such printed.

Everybody publishing wants to be in line with 'offical', and when path has been set...rest will follow.


Well, still, I wind up buying those books anyway, whine about them with my friends who mostly agree with me. And move to more important issues... like art.

Anyone else think Mystra in Faints and Avatars, looks like some 'goth' larp girl? (or whatever, that is in english).

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Tavern Wench: "You boys got back here a lot sooner than we thought."

Fighter: "Yeah, we thought we had to fight a great wyrm red dragon, but lucky for us, it was just Graz'zt."

Exactly.

And I though dragons were too disposable.

 

[The Serge]

Re: Re: Graz'zt

No matter which way you slice it Graz'zt got the shaft!

They're all a little too weak for me. But, since there are options for giving them more than just Quasi-divine status... assuming I'm understanding what I've read thus far...

 

[The Serge]

If the demon / devil princes' CRs had been pushed to the 40+ range they wouldn't be very usable with the core books. As it is now, they can be possibly used as major enemies to battle for non-epic groups. This is right IMO, because BoVD doesn't require the ownership of ELHB to use.

They'd be as usable as some lesser gods and most demigods.

I think, as someone else already pointed out, that this has to do with how one sees the archfiends... as well as one's cosmological perception.

Some of you may have seen my Lords of the Nine which are about as powerful as lower-level Intermediate gods without being gods. This is precisely the kind of thing I wanted... beings one could fight if they were extremely high-level despite the fact that I don't typically play at such high levels. Personally, for me it's a cosmological issue. If a being rules an entire layer (or in the case of Asmodeus, an entire plane), a CR under 50 makes no sense whether or not one considers them gods.

IMO, most of the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Princes should be higher level challenges than the toughest standard monster and should be well above the toughest non-divine epic monster. They should rank in power with gods, even if they technically are not gods. If the book allows gamers to increase their power, great. If not, I will still buy the book, using my own stats (in which the Lords are between 50 and 60 CR) with some modifications that take advantage of the BoVD Feats, magic, and disciple class.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Given that PC's reach 20th level pretty fast, hell it can be only a couple of years in game time, I would think these "cosmic entities" would be a little more imposing. It seems to me that a party would have cleaned their clocks long ago. They could barely get work as gate guards in the city of Union out of the ELH!

Well I think the default assumption in BoVD is that you're not going to be using the ELH. If you are, it provides guidelines to bump up the power of the "cosmic entities." Sounds like a good compromise to me.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Going above 20th level isn't even possible without a supplementary book (as others have pained to point out

Not for levels, but this doesn't hold true for monster HD.

It's not characters I compare these critters with, but monsters in monster manual, and how high they can rise.

How likely you think 20th level pc-party finnish off, that 66th HD solar, for example. Advanced HD rules should not be forgotten, when creating monsters within core rules.

This has nothing to do with how high level games I run, but rather with consistancy of cosmos on stat-level. If anything should be greatest example of power-competion winners from mortal creatures/presented core-outsiders, they should be these kind of named lords of evil, or at least they should be equeal to good/neutral ones of same rank.

I don't think demon lords should have made any more easily winnable, than advanced solars, titans or greatest dragons. In fact, they should be IMO more powerful, or at least equal to the most powerful. PC:s are not competition they have survided against all their existance.

If one day, I will actually run high level game, where players go to face these lords of evil, I want it to be special. Such critters do not have history of baing casually slain my mortals or demi-immortals. Not just 'special dungeon', creature itself should be the 'greatest end-of level monster'. Otherwise it's going to be disappointment.

There should really be reason, pc:s are driven to quest to collect some artifact weapon/other helpful stuff, and make those quests, because merely being high-level (min-maxed or no), is not enough.

Abyss/Hell is not mortal realms where king rules by merit of status, there status must be held my equal amount of power, or creature just ends up being assassinated by it's own 'loyal' followers.

Now, who would follow 'a loser', who might be wiped out by four magic-item wielding mortals.

Sure dm can make even 1/2 HD kobold dangerous, but that is far from my point.