The Elite

[Manzanita]

The Elite

The people of all races are populated on the bell curve. Occasionally individuals of exceptional talent emerge who follow the path of the adventurer.

The Elite can be of any race. Their only difference is their superior ability scores.

Proposal 1:
At LA+1, the elite starts with a 42 point buy.
For LA+2, the elite starts with a 60 point buy.
For purposes of this proposal, it takes 4 points to take an ability score from 18 to 19, another 4 to take it from 19 to 20. These point buys cannot be used to take an original, non-racially modified ability score over 20.

Proposal 2:
Levels of elite can be taken by existing players who already have levels in other classes. When this is done, the point buy is used to raise ability scores from their original, non-racially modified scores. Take, for example, a half orc character who had originally spent 8 points on strength, giving him a score of 17, and who had increased this score to 18 at 4th level. If this PC then took a level of Elite at 5th level, he could raise his strength to 19 by spending 2 points. Raising it to 20 would take another 3 points.

As before, no more than 24 points can be spent on any one ability score, thus capping the original non-racially modified score at 20.

Techincal notes [sblock]
I opened a thread on this topic in the house rules forum, which was unfortunately lost in the data crash. I was disappointed that there was no solid concensus on what ability bonuses would constitute and LA+1 or a LA +2 PC. I base the LA +1 numbers on taking three abilities from 14 to 16 and the LA +2 numbers on taking those three abilities from 16 to 18. Using point buys instead of ‘+2’s gives the character greater flexibility. It seems unlikely anyone will use this to push an ability score over 18, as the price quickly becomes prohibitive. Thus a Elite orc, LA+2, is still unlikely to have a strength higher than 22, which some first level ones have anyway. I capped the maximum an ability score could be raised at 20 before racial adjustments, somewhat arbitrarily.

I should say I’ve never seen this playtested, and am open to suggestions as to how to make it more balanced. Intuition tells me this is not overpowered as it stands. At first I had wanted this to be a template that could be added to existing characters. But I have difficulty envisioning how this would work in character...[/sblock]

Flavor notes [sblock]
At times we have a great character concept that can be built on 25 points. Other times we want to play Aragorn or Conan. This proposal addresses this second desire. Looking back on LEW, I wish we had implemented different point buys for different characters of the same player, like what has been done in the Living Supers board. If we limited each player to three PCs, they should have been able to make one at a 25 point buy, one at a 30 point buy, and one at a 35 point buy, or whatever. I see this proposal as a way to open LEW up more types of characters. It seems very reasonable to me that not all PCs should have to have the same basic stat values.

At one time, I wanted to use this for myself. I doubt now that I will, but at least one other player expressed interest in this proposal, so here it is.[/sblock]

 

[Velmont]

I must tell I might try it if I ever retire one of my character (or if it get killed). But now, what is a good ECL +1 and ECL +2... that I don't know. I think in a world like LEW, ECL is less a disadvanatge than in normal game, as you can easily have people of different level in a same group, it isn,t like to have a gaming group with everyone at the same level.

What would look like a monk make with the three systems:

PB:  30  42  60

Str: 14  16  18
Dex: 14  16  16
Con: 14  14  16
Int: 10  12  14
Wis: 16  16  18
Cha:  8  10  10

Hmmm... Hard to tell... maybe a bit strong, but hard to tell at first sight.

 

[Xael]

I really like the idea. Most of my character concepts nowdays require all good stats (under 12 is no good ), so this would be very nice.

The LA adjustments seem alright to me. It's a bit hard to tell whether they're under- or overpowered, but I guess that's a good thing.

One thing I would like to add, that it would be nice to make it possible to take the LAs when you level up. That would be fair to already existing characters. I don't think that it would be too complicated either.

 

[Xael]

After thinking about this, I'd also suggest that you add a third option. With LA +3, all stats would start at 18, before racial modifiers.

I did some calculations.

[B]LA . . . Points . . . Optimal Bonuses . . . Increase from Previous[/B]
+0 . . . . 30 . . . . . . .. +9
+1 . . . . 42 . . . . . . . +13(.5) . . . . . . . .. +4
+2 . . . . 60 . . . . . . . +18 . . . . . . . . . .. +5
+3 . . . . 96 . . . . . . . +24 . . . . . . . . . .. +6

The optimal bonus is how much positive modifiers you can theoretically get from the points, if you spend them evenly, though I'm pretty sure there aren't many who actually do this. The value of points decreases quickly after you go past LA +1, as you either raise your main scores a little to maximum, or raise the lower (usually less important) stats on par with your main stats.

If you want to keep the optimal bonus increase linear (which it won't really ever be), you could do this:

[B]LA . . . Points . . . Optimal Bonuses . . . Increase from Previous[/B]
+0 . . . . 30 . . . . . . .. +9
+1 . . . . 44 . . . . . . . +14 . . . . . . . . . .. +5
+2 . . . . 66 . . . . . . . +19 . . . . . . . . . .. +5
+3 . . . . 96 . . . . . . . +24 . . . . . . . . . .. +5

If you start to divide the increases in more levels/LA, the optimal bonus increase gets smaller quite fast, being only +3.75 per LA with LA + 4 giving 18 in all stats.



The first options seems a bit better to me, since everybody has one or two stats they really don't care that much about (Charisma...), and increasing them won't really affect the power of the character. So the increasing, err, increase in bonuses is evened out by the fact that it usually means less to the character (from Min-Maxing/Powergaming perspective).



If I'm talking complete nonsense, I blame the fact that it's past midnight here.

 

[Knight Otu]

This is the proposal mentioned earlier in the General Discussion thread, right? I had assumed it would go into the opposite direction, oddly (namely, you may begin play at higher (effective) level, but you have to start with a lower point).
I don't think there should be too many problems with the idea (there are no point buy values for scores above 18, so we don't have to worry about that). I think the specific numbers are good, too, but I'll wait for a few more number crunchings on that.
I don't think I agree with Xael about allowing existing characters to become elite, though. Sounds like a headache to me (and for Nimisgod and me ). "So I've become a High Elite Human Sor 4/Paragon 3. What's my Charisma score now?"

 

[Bront]

I agree that it shouldn't be allowable after creation, too confusing, particularly with other stat bonuses potentialy miring the issue.

It is an interesting question. How many stat points make a LA difference. Oddly enough, the characters benifited by it the most (Casters), are the ones least likely to take it.

It will be interesting, given the current state of allowing or not allowing LA adjustments to start.

 

[Xael]

I don't think I agree with Xael about allowing existing characters to become elite, though. Sounds like a headache to me (and for Nimisgod and me ).

I don't think it would be that confusing. The "official character sheet" has the point-buy numbers listed in it anyway. It's less confusing that normally taking a level IMHO.

Other stat bonuses would just come on top of it. Currently these are at most +1 from 4th level I think (and racial modifiers). Stat boosters don't count, since you already have to know what's your real stat with those.

Flavor-wise, I can think of a number of self-perfection-related things that make just as much sense as being born as Elite.

And most importantly, this would let more people actually benefit from it, since I haven't really seen anybody retire a character and start a higher level one. I think a lot of people already have characters that might have needed/wanted this when they started and this option wasn't available.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I don't think that this is really overpowered, but when given the option to play a human with 42 Point Buy or a hobgoblin with 30 Point Buy at the same ECL, don't be surprised if nobody ever plays a hobgoblin again. This speaks a good deal, however, to the weakness of the poor hobgoblin.

 

[Bront]

I don't think that this is really overpowered, but when given the option to play a human with 42 Point Buy or a hobgoblin with 30 Point Buy at the same ECL, don't be surprised if nobody ever plays a hobgoblin again. This speaks a good deal, however, to the weakness of the poor hobgoblin.

Dwarf > Hobgoblin
I think you're better off comparing it to an Aasimar, Teifling, or Half-Giant.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Dwarf > Hobgoblin
I think you're better off comparing it to an Aasimar, Teifling, or Half-Giant.

Dwarf ~= Hobgoblin because the hobbos have two bonuses, the dwarves have one bonus and a penalty that doesn't matter plus better specials. But nonetheless, hobgoblins are LA +1. Also, you can easily imagine the comparison of 42 PB Dwarf vs 30 PB hobgoblin