The Elite

[Knight Otu]

It's less confusing that normally taking a level IMHO.

I'd say it is of a similar complexity, in that it pretty much changes the entire character sheet. Also, someone who decides to become elite wouldn't be the same as someone who started out as an elite (especially in the skills department). Finally, if we don't allow someone to level up to become a hobgoblin from a goblin, or take on the blindborn template on level-up, why should elite be different?

 

[Xael]

I'd say it is of a similar complexity, in that it pretty much changes the entire character sheet.

Well, yeah. It depends on the stats that changed of course. But at least it isn't more complex than level-up, right? Which means that the complexity complaint is null and void.

Also, someone who decides to become elite wouldn't be the same as someone who started out as an elite (especially in the skills department).

I always tend to push Intelligence to about 14 in the beginning with my characters anyway, because raising it later is less useful. I think that this problem is related to the non-retroactivity (err, is that correct?) of intelligence score, rather than the Elite template.

Finally, if we don't allow someone to level up to become a hobgoblin from a goblin, or take on the blindborn template on level-up, why should elite be different?

Flavor-wise, I can think of both mundane and magical excuses for sudden increases in stats. I tend to think that (nonmagical) ability scores are way too static in D&D anyway, so I'm somewhat biased.

Savage Species book had some kind of transformation rituals, that allowed you to change your form (or add some templates). I suppose we could get to proposing something like that in LEW too. We already have Reincarnation. Technically we could implement gaining the Elite template (or some other way of increasing ability scores) in the rituals, if nonmagical way of increasing ability scores seems too radical.



Summary: I would like some kind of method for the already existing characters to increase their ability scores, should some version of this be approved.

 

[Knight Otu]

Well, yeah. It depends on the stats that changed of course. But at least it isn't more complex than level-up, right? Which means that the complexity complaint is null and void.

I did not say it is not more complex. I said it isn't less complex than leveling up normally. Are you volunteering to be a third character judge?

 

[Xael]

I did not say it is not more complex. I said it isn't less complex than leveling up normally. Are you volunteering to be a third character judge?

I didn't say that you said that... oh, whatever.

And while the position would interest me, I think I'm too lazy to be a judge.

 

[Knight Otu]

I didn't say that you said that... oh, whatever.

"similar". Not "same".
*puts away gold scale*

And while the position would interest me, I think I'm too lazy to be a judge.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I do like Manzanita's suggestion for allowing different PB totals for different characters of the same player. So long as everyone is limited to one extra-powerful character, it's fair, and it makes it possible to create a monk or paladin with attributes worthy of the class. It's not too late to enact such a rule, even if those with three existing characters can only benefit from it by retiring a character.

I like the idea, as well, but I don't like punishing someone for creating a character prior to the opportunity existing. Why require a player to retire a character they've been using for years when a new player can just create a new character taking advantage of the change?

Personally speaking, I would greatly enjoy improving Troi's stats. However, I have no intention of retiring the character, nor do I have any intention of starting another character anytime in the foreseeable future. I don't think that allowing players to retroactively improve their characters' stats would be all that horrible - the character judges would be a bit more busy for a couple weeks, true, but then it would be done.

 

[Patlin]

Then again, I'm not sure differing point buys really adds much, so I'd be reluctant to put the burden on Nimisgod and KO for so little gain.

 

[Manzanita]

Looks like a number of people are interested in this. I think I'll split up the proposal. I thought Xael did a good examination of it, but I still like it better as I first proposed it.

I thought I'd add two addendums.
1. The opportunity to take a level of Elite for existing PCs, who are above 1st level. This seems more controversial. I like the idea, and think it could be justified in several ways. For one thing it isn't necessarily more counterintuitive than the increase in power of normal leveling, particularly when multiclassing. Also, for young people, say, age 17, it isn't too uncommon for them to grow a few more inches and put on 20 pounds of muscle by the time they're 21 or so. And of course, people get smarter, wiser and more charismatic all the time. I don't see why it couldn't be done in-game at a higher rate then 1 point every 4 levels.

2. Knight Otu mentioned he thought the proposal would go the opposite way. I hadn't thought of this, buy why not? What if we allowed characters with a lower point buy to jump to 2nd level right off? That would really open up LEW to more character concepts, including ECL races. Maybe if you take a 23 point-buy, you can start as a 2nd level PC?


KO & Nimisgod have been character judges for a long time. It's definitely a tough job, and maybe its time to give them a break. These need not be permanent positions. Perhaps we could get some volunteers to take over for a year, and pick new ones every year after that. I'd volunteer. I don't know that I'd be as good, though, as my rules knowledge is hardly exemplary.

 

[orsal]

Why require a player to retire a character they've been using for years when a new player can just create a new character taking advantage of the change?

Nobody would be required to do anything of the sort. Just because the rule gives players an option doesn't penalize people who don't use that option. Why restrict new players just because older players were similarly restricted? If you've got three characters, and you like them all, great.

 

[doghead]

Perhaps a 42 point character wouldn't be quite as good as a 30 point buy character with the extra level. But for me, talking an advanced stat character would be more about the idea than mechanics, or the mechanical advantages to be more precise.

Initially I was quite taken with the idea of allowing differing stat point buys (or ECL perhaps) depending on the number of characters you take. But after some thought, I began to wonder why we should distinguish between people who have chosen to take one character and those who have chosen to take two or three.

I'm still not keen on the idea of allowing existing characters to take a stat increase instead of a level. While I agree that we often talk about growing in wisdom, or becoming stranger and tougher, I think these things are sufficiently accounted for in the current stat increases (not to mention the increases in saves, skill ranks, hp etc). And the type of increases being discussed here are considerable, +2 across several stats is no small jump.

thotd