The Elite

[El Jefe]

I'd say apply the procedure on pp. 58-59 of the PHB (yeah, I know it isn't SRD, but it is WotC...) You apply the Ability Score increase from leveling first, then after that apply the class features...which would include the extra point buy.

Seems to me like it would make a lot more sense to take a level of this class early than late. If you were trying to buy up the same stat, it would cost you less when the stat was a 16 or so than it would after several levels when it had been increased to a 20.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oops! I guess the fact that someone else gave a opposite answer means that it isn't as obvious as I thought

 

[El Jefe]

Yeah, your post beat mine in, and when I read yours, I checked the point buy system. It seems an omission that the table stops at 18 (after all, there aren't clearly defined templates for all LA characters). I don't think it would be that hard to figure out what the progression past 18 ought to be, and maybe the "official LEW extension to the table" should be a part of this proposal.

Or we can just rule that you can't use this class's ability to buy up scores past 18.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Personally, I say that 19 requires 20 points, and 20 requires 24 points. Never figured it out past that, though.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yeah, your post beat mine in, and when I read yours, I checked the point buy system. It seems an omission that the table stops at 18 (after all, there aren't clearly defined templates for all LA characters). I don't think it would be that hard to figure out what the progression past 18 ought to be, and maybe the "official LEW extension to the table" should be a part of this proposal.

Or we can just rule that you can't use this class's ability to buy up scores past 18.

Whereas I think that any character willing to pay a full level adjustment for stat increases shouldn't have to encounter troubles due to stat raises or inherent bonuses. Admittedly, there is precedent in the way skill points work for creating characters that are different based on when they raised their Int, but for everything else in the game, the rules work so that meticulous track of order needn't be kept, and many people (though not myself included) consider this a reason to switch the way skill points work too.

Implementing it your way will be a headache for Judges (My level 5 Elite character who took Elite first might wind up with stats that are totalling up much better than yours who took Elite at 5th, even if we tried to buy similar stats) and only causes suffering for players who are already paying a large price for a few higher stats--it can't possibly help them unless you would rule that ability drain lets you randomly pay less for point buy, in which case my Wizard would gleefully go visit an Intellect Devourer before taking Elite and then go get the lost Int restored.

Edit: On a side note, we don't charge elves extra PB to raise up their Dex to 20 after racial mods. I would think that 'Point Buy', since it is meant to exist solely at character creation, is always applied before considering anything that happened since character creation, including racial adjustments. Or do you want to tell me that a level 1 Elf with Dex 16 (He paid 6 points and got +2 from being elf) needs to pay 6 more points to get to 18 Dex if he takes a level in Elite?

 

[El Jefe]

Well, first, I don't disagree with your first two paragraphs.

Edit: On a side note, we don't charge elves extra PB to raise up their Dex to 20 after racial mods.

That's because it's pretty clear that during character generation, you generate the raw scores first, then apply racial (and other?) ability modifiers.

I would think that 'Point Buy', since it is meant to exist solely at character creation, is always applied before considering anything that happened since character creation, including racial adjustments. Or do you want to tell me that a level 1 Elf with Dex 16 (He paid 6 points and got +2 from being elf) needs to pay 6 more points to get to 18 Dex if he takes a level in Elite?

Maybe. It's pretty obvious that someone taking a level of elite is "buying up" ability scores after character generation, perhaps long after. So, I guess it becomes a matter of philosphy and preference. Does taking a level of this class allow one to retroactively re-generate the character? Or does it allow one to modify an existing character? Although the first sounds a little illogical, both approaches are valid in terms of game play. I think it's a matter of deciding which we all prefer. I'm not committed to either approach myself, but I want to head this off before this gets approved and we wind up with an ambiguous situation when someone levels up and wants to do this.

 

[Rystil Arden]

That's because it's pretty clear that during character generation, you generate the raw scores first, then apply racial (and other?) ability modifiers.

Right, and by giving more point buy, Elite is just that--a change to the raw scores. The character is untapping their full potential. You may think that 'retroactively regenerating the character' seems illogical, but I think that taking point buy, which exists solely as a character creation balance method that exists before any additional modifiers, and attempting to apply that out of context, thus punishing stat raises and non-human races is actually more illogical (though I admit both are illogical, which we were probably guaranteed would occur when we decided to introduce an in-game racial variant that only affects a metagame decision--the character's point buy)

And once the approval is passed, some players might have this labeled on their characters from the get-go. For instance let's say a player said this:

My character currently is at Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8. When there is a good roleplay moment to do so, based on what he encounters in the world around him, I am planning to take Elite and either bump Strength and Con both up by 2 with the 12 points if he continues to view the world as a place where only strength can flourish or to bump up the mental stats each by 4 if he can learn that sometimes violence isn't the answer.

 

[Manzanita]

For part II of the proposal, the point buy should be used to add to the original, non-racially modified scores. This is the way I would like to see it done anyway. This is the only way the proposal stays fair, in my opinion. Thus, if someone stars with a 15 str, increases this to 16 @4th level, then took a level of Elite at 5th, he/she could then raise it to 17 for 2 points. If this PC were a half-orc, his/her strength then could be raised to 19 at the same cost.

Or...just what RA was saying. I'll write that into the proposal. I also, somewhat arbitrarily capped the points that one could spend on a single ability score at 24 (which would produce a 20 before racial or other adjustments). We could discuss and change this.

 

[Knight Otu]

It seems an omission that the table stops at 18 (after all, there aren't clearly defined templates for all LA characters). I don't think it would be that hard to figure out what the progression past 18 ought to be, and maybe the "official LEW extension to the table" should be a part of this proposal.

Not really an omission, as point buy is meant to replace/simulate rolling your character's ability scores, and when was the last time you rolled above 18 on 4d6, drop the lowest?

I'm with Rystil Arden and Manzanita on the "order of operations" issue - if option 2 is approved, that is a lot cleaner, and more consistent. Besides, elite isn't really a class, but more of a template.

 

[Patlin]

In any case, in general, I believe we have allowed DMs to regulate which characters get in their games. They can say 'no evil PCs' or 'no psionic PCs' for example,if they wish. Did you have some other system in mind? Are you saying you wouldn't want any 'elite' PCs in your games?

Oh, if the proposal passes, I have no objection to them in my games. I just don't see the proposal as being good for LEW as a whole. I prefer being able to say to a new player "we use a 30 point buy system" rather than saying "we normally use a 30 point buy system, but in some cases we don't, have a look at the rule mechanics thread."

I'm mostly opposed to this proposal based on the "Keep it Simple" principal, and to a lesser extent because I like a level playing field and I'm not confident we can balance this properly.