D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[The Crimson Binome]

Do you tend to looks at the group as a player, who knows that you're going to have 5 characters whatever happens, and a new character's player can be bullied into optimising with the threat of "letting the group down" if they don't?

I can't imagine playing with someone who would risk letting the failure of the entire group fall on their own conscious decision to play a character who was obviously less competent where it counts - in life-or-death situations.

There are levels of optimization, and the most basic level is just putting your good score in your attack stat. That's the minimum level of competence which is implied by the unspoken social contract. If a player isn't even willing to do that - if I would be put into the position of convincing them to fulfill this minor obligation to the group endeavor - then I already know they aren't a team player, and I probably don't want to play with them. Group activities require the participation of everyone involved, and if they aren't even going to play in good faith, then I don't want them ruining the game for everyone else.

 

[Stalker0]

One argument I did not understand was the "Fighter's have bad non-AC defenses".

To which I reply....they do?

A traditional fighter has a great con save. A dex fighter has a great con and decent dex save. And at 9th level you get a saving throw reroll.

I would argue the only classes that are REALLY good at non-AC saves are 6th+ paladins and 14+ monks.

 

[Stalker0]

Ultimately I think most of the concerns about Fighters are for those that in their heart....want to play 5e paladins.

5e paladins are a great class...and very good at a range of things. They have healing, great saves, social skills, big spike damage. They are not as fighty as a fighter, but they are very well rounded.

I think a lot of people playing fighters want that...to which I say...go play a paladin. Paladin don't really have the RP restrictions they used to. You go play a Vengeance paladin, throw off any holy RP, and just go kick butt.

Fighters are great at fighting...and can be built with some decent nudges in other areas. But if that's not enough, the paladin is likely the perfect class for you.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I would argue the only classes that are REALLY good at non-AC saves are 6th+ paladins and 14+ monks.

They are /really/ good, relative to the other classes in 5e, yeah. But saves are really bad in 5e. You have six of them to cover, you can't possibly boost all six of your stats, and you only get proficiency in 2. So at least two and often 4 of your saves are going to be terrible, and at most one is going to actually keep pace with DCs as you level.

For me, saves getting better across the board as you leveled is something that WotC-era D&D shouldn't have abandoned, and one of the few things that 5e didn't re-wind to that it actually should have.
The fighter is the stand-out victim of that, because, back in the day, it's saves, though they started out poor-to-middling, improved the fastest. That was a real advantage, and always seemed like an appropriate one, to me: the class that couldn't /do/ magic could at least stand up to it.
And, yes, there's feats for that, and boosting a tertiary stat with a bonus ASI even if not feats are available does give you a whole +1 to the corresponding save. With DCs scaling from under 13 to 19+, though, that's a +1 stacking up against a 36-point deficit.

How a fight participates during the Social pillar

Start a hockey game?

I mean, it's not like a fighter can't work the game to their strengths.

It's not like any good player can't work the game to the strengths of his character - no matter how few or how inferior those strengths may be compared to those of other character classes.

As for the exploration side? I... how can they not explore?

That's like handing a wizard a sword and asking "how can he not fight?" Of course he can fight - and better with a staff than a sword (unless he's an elf) and better than that with an effing cantrip. He's just not going to stand out from - or even stand with - the crowd based on his skill with weapons. Telling a 10 STR character to start non-proficiently swinging around some heavy weapon because, hey, BA, y'might hit something now and then, is not illustrating that they're adequate in the combat pillar.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Start a hockey game?

It's not like any good player can't work the game to the strengths of his character - no matter how few or how inferior those strengths may be compared to those of other character classes.

That's like handing a wizard a sword and asking "how can he not fight?" Of course he can fight - and better with a staff than a sword (unless he's an elf) and better than that with an effing cantrip. He's just not going to stand out from - or even stand with - the crowd based on his skill with weapons. Telling a 10 STR character to start non-proficiently swinging around some heavy weapon because, hey, BA, y'might hit something now and then, is not illustrating that they're adequate in the combat pillar.

Unlike the wizard, the fighter has Athletics and typically excellent physical scores. Coupled with a bag of hit points and we're looking at a tough little rover.

I'm not sure who your group is sending up the rigging/down the holes but for our lot, it's the monkey fighter. We find they're a lot more efficient than someone who's using spell slots and a fair bit more durable than the rogue/monk/bard/shapeshifted druid.

I mean, sure, we could send someone else but the dude naturally gifted with strength, the toughness to survive and the skills to do it - all without requiring magical aid - are a good call.

And if the others want to slap on some magical support, even better.

So aye, I'd say a fighter exploring is a heck of lot more efficient than a wizard trying to melee. Though, I reckon an Abjurer or Spellsinger could get in there and hold their own, at least for a while.

 

[Mistwell]

I would not have minded if the Fighter, at some point in early-mid levels, added this ability: "You may choose one of the following feats for free as a class ability: Actor, Alert, Dungeon Delver, Healer, Keen Mind, Linguist, Observant, Skilled, Skulker."

Something to add some exploration or social oomph to the class.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I would not have minded if the Fighter, at some point in early-mid levels, added this ability: "You may choose one of the following feats for free as a class ability: Actor, Alert, Dungeon Delver, Healer, Keen Mind, Linguist, Observant, Skilled, Skulker."

Something to add some exploration or social oomph to the class.

They already get an even more versatile version of that ability don't they?

 

[MiraMels]

I don't allow feats in my games. Fighters do just fine. Those extra stat points go into rounding out other stats not directly related to fighting, and those higher secondary stats + basic proficiencies give my players plenty to do outside of hitting things.

It's true that the fighter doesn't have nearly any class features related to not-combat (Champions and Battlemasters get one, at 7th level) so it works best when the player is proactive about getting involved in situations regardless.

 

[Sacrosanct]

They already get an even more versatile version of that ability don't they?

Yeah, they do. That extra feat at 6th level. Why someone would prefer a change to where you're forced to take one of those feats as opposed to how it is now here you can choose them if you want is beyond me. It's like I'm hearing (not from Mistwell, but from others):

"Well, I am always gonna chose a combat feat at 6th level as my extra feat, so that means the fighter class has nothing in the class that adds to exploration or interaction." They do, you just aren't choosing to do so.

So it seems as if Mistwell is saying he'd like to see where you're forced to take a non combat feat at 6th level just because some people never will unless they are forced to. Like DPR is heroin or something, and no matter how hard they try, they have to make all decisions around that one thing.

 

[Satyrn]

Use a background is just as much a cop out as use an extra feat, everybody gets a background. The extra abilities for the other 2 pillars could be in the subclass but what we got was non mechanic BYO flavour something no other class had to suffer.

I'm a fighter fan. I'm not suffering from that. I consider it a feature.

My gnome criminal battlemaster contributed fully and satisfyingly to all pillars of the game.