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D&D 5E The Fighter Problem

Warpiglet

Adventurer
Hah, so I take it you don't enjoy Mike Mearls' work as a game designer?

Haha! No I think he is pretty brilliant...but I think most players are at least "smart enough." I can come up with lots of champions...

And I can come up with battlemasters. And eldritch knights...

And I am not brilliant...ok maybe a little bit.

I bet you can come up with reasons the battlemaster is so skilled. Watch game of thrones. What was that swordsman' name? Or even the last samurai! Or perhaps a million other characters! How about Conan? Was he necessarily a barbarian in the movie? Or bormir?! He fits somewhere...thorin? So many others? Just not strider...he was an archetype in another way. Elric?! Was he an eldritch knight or a hexblade? Come on! Players can do this!
 

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Quickleaf

Legend
Haha! No I think he is pretty brilliant...but I think most players are at least "smart enough." I can come up with lots of champions...

And I can come up with battlemasters. And eldritch knights...

And I am not brilliant...ok maybe a little bit.

I bet you can come up with reasons the battlemaster is so skilled. Watch game of thrones. What was that swordsman' name? Or even the last samurai! Or perhaps a million other characters! How about Conan? Was he necessarily a barbarian in the movie? Or bormir?! He fits somewhere...thorin? So many others? Just not strider...he was an archetype in another way. Elric?! Was he an eldritch knight or a hexblade? Come on! Players can do this!

Let's play a little. How do you complete these "power sentences" capturing the essence of the subclass...?

E.g. A Thief breaks in and steals stuff.

A Champion _____________ .

A Battle Master ____________ .
 

Indeed. If only we had a variant entertainer background for a gladiator. Or mounted combat and other feats for a knight...if only we gave labels the players could never come up with!
The point is that "champion" and "battle master" mean nothing if you don't read the mechanics. There's no story. No description baked into the character. The subclass - which is one of the largest choices you can make in the game - does nothing to inform who your character is.

I have two fighters in my game. One is a battle master, one is a champion.

There's Giles the Grim, archer and woodsman extraordinaire. He fights with a longbow, typically several hundred feet from the encounter.
And there's Flynn Damocles Damascus, son of the 23rd Earl of Brighthome, swashbucklers and self-proclaimed greatest swordsman in the land. He fights with twin rapiers.

Which is which? Which is the champion and which is the battle master?
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
The point is that "champion" and "battle master" mean nothing if you don't read the mechanics. There's no story. No description baked into the character. The subclass - which is one of the largest choices you can make in the game - does nothing to inform who your character is.

I have two fighters in my game. One is a battle master, one is a champion.

There's Giles the Grim, archer and woodsman extraordinaire. He fights with a longbow, typically several hundred feet from the encounter.
And there's Flynn Damocles Damascus, son of the 23rd Earl of Brighthome, swashbucklers and self-proclaimed greatest swordsman in the land. He fights with twin rapiers.

Which is which? Which is the champion and which is the battle master?

The champion is the one that the player believed was a good fit for the package and vice versa. The more skilled one is probably the battlemaster and the more "physical" of He two is probably the champion. The truth is fighters are all skilled with weapons but the mechanics may help you look a little more one way than another.

I am guessing the players did not want a filled in story or they would have taken a paladin or ranger or even (maybe) eldritch knight. We are not going to have perfect mechanics for every vision. A bare warrior lets us project our vision onto the mechanics. Again, I dislike a kit or prestige class for millions of niches. I trust players to develop their own in some cases (e.g. Wizard, fighter and a few others) Are NOT totally fleshed out. The subclasses are food for thought and hints.

That is not THE answer. It's just mine.
 
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Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Let's play a little. How do you complete these "power sentences" capturing the essence of the subclass...?

E.g. A Thief breaks in and steals stuff.

A Champion _____________ .

A Battle Master ____________ .

Just to say I love this way of thinking the archetypes. It reminds me of the Numenera/Cypher system's way of creating characters with a Descriptor (quality)+Type(broad class group)+Focus(Speciality).

I'll give it a try (I'm still in the camp that feels like the figher is somewhat lacking in flavor, while still being a strong class).

The CHAMPION is a DRIVEN WARRIOR who PRESSES THE ATTACK RELENTLESSLY.
The BATTLEMASTER is a CLEVER WARRIOR who FIGHTS WITH PANACHE.
 

SmokingSkull

First Post
I will say that I understand what Mr. Mearls was talking about and I agree. More to the point Champion and Battlemaster are interchangeable as far as descriptive/evocative titles go. I say this because the character I'm playing currently has all the traits of what would be generally a "typical" Battlemaster: Is a student of war, cultured and even taught one of the members of the party how to fight. The thing is...he's a Champion mechanically, the Soldier background is what gave him more or less the other stuff I mentioned, so in that respect neither Battlemaster nor Champion tell the tale. And another thing he's also part Barbarian, Totem Warrior, which represents his more savage side.

However he is way more Fighter than Barbarian, cause there is no raging/Barbarian like subclass for the Fighter so I had to tell this story through multiclassing. My ultimate point is neither Champion nor Battlemaster really bring to mind a discernible archetype on their own unlike other subclasses.
 

The champion is the one that the player believed was a good fit for the package and vice versa. The more skilled one is probably the battlemaster and the more "physical" of He two is probably the champion. The truth is fighters are all skilled with weapons but the mechanics may help you look a little more one way than another.

I am guessing the players did not want a filled in story or they would have taken a paladin or ranger or even (maybe) eldritch knight. We are not going to have perfect mechanics for every vision. A bare warrior lets us project our vision onto the mechanics. Again, I dislike a kit or prestige class for millions of niches. I trust players to develop their own in some cases (e.g. Wizard, fighter and a few others) Are NOT totally fleshed out. The subclasses are food for thought and hints.

That is not THE answer. It's just mine.
The thing is, they could have given them more identity.

It's the flaw in the fighter subclasses: their identity was based solely on mechanics rather than story or narrative. So the subclass tells you nothing and means nothing in the world. Outside of combat, in the other 2/3rds of the game, the subclasses mean nothing.
And it makes it hard to design more subclasses, as the two main designs have been filled. You can't have a gladiator or knight subclass now, because the complexity is tied to subclasses. If a player wants to play a newly released bounty hunter or phalanx or dreadnought subclass, either it has the complexity they want or their narrative concept doesn't fit the design. The subclass might not do what they want to do.

A better idea would have been two decision points (like the warlock that picks patron and pact boon), so the fighter has one choice that determines their complexity and another tried to their subclass & story. An option at second level that gave all fighters the choice of having maneuvers (complexity) or static bonuses, followed by the standard subclasses that are pure flavour, and also give the class more of that exploration and social support the class needs.
That way you could have a knight fighter that does knightly things without having to decide if it is complex but alienates players who just want to hit stuff but also want to play Lancelot, or vise versa and it's simple but bores players who want choices each combat.

But too late now...
 

Champion has mythological weight. The chosen warrior that represents your faction, often the most skilled warrior. The one who would step forth and fight the opposing champion for whatever political reason you happen to need resolving.

Achilles was a Champion. Cú Chulainn was a Champion.

I can't think of anything mythological for Battle Master. Sorry. :p
 


Quickleaf

Legend
The thing is, they could have given them more identity.

It's the flaw in the fighter subclasses: their identity was based solely on mechanics rather than story or narrative. So the subclass tells you nothing and means nothing in the world. Outside of combat, in the other 2/3rds of the game, the subclasses mean nothing.
And it makes it hard to design more subclasses, as the two main designs have been filled. You can't have a gladiator or knight subclass now, because the complexity is tied to subclasses. If a player wants to play a newly released bounty hunter or phalanx or dreadnought subclass, either it has the complexity they want or their narrative concept doesn't fit the design. The subclass might not do what they want to do.

A better idea would have been two decision points (like the warlock that picks patron and pact boon), so the fighter has one choice that determines their complexity and another tried to their subclass & story. An option at second level that gave all fighters the choice of having maneuvers (complexity) or static bonuses, followed by the standard subclasses that are pure flavour, and also give the class more of that exploration and social support the class needs.
That way you could have a knight fighter that does knightly things without having to decide if it is complex but alienates players who just want to hit stuff but also want to play Lancelot, or vise versa and it's simple but bores players who want choices each combat.

But too late now...

I'll just say YES. :) That's how I wish all classes had been designed, with the choice between simplicity and complexity at the table made independently from the choice of subclass.

For example, a simple sorcerer might have a drastically streamlined version of metamagic with more constant/static benefits. Whereas a complex sorcerer might look more like the PHB version. And then you'd still have the subclass choice of draconic/wild/storm, etc.
 

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