The Healing Paradox

[pemerton]

I think my perspective comes from the fact that really the first system I DMed was 2E (although I played 1E and BD&D) and that's where I think I probably internalized hits and damage, which stayed with me for all these years later, and that is potentially why my playstyle differs from yours.

I never thought too hard about it playing AD&D and B/X. But I was one who left AD&D for a more simulationist system (Rolemaster, in my case). I hated hp attrition combat in 3E when I played it a little. I came back to GMing D&D with 4e, and one thing I really liked about it was that it gave me a working hp system that was very different from "hp as meat" and that supported the sort of play I was interested in as an alternative to heavy simulation.

 

[Hussar]

Here is 3E's definition of hit points, and it's the one I like the best:

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.​

/snip.

Just a point here.

Isn't "the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one" precisely what Plot Armor is? You mentioned earlier about many arrows hitting the target, denting armor and whatnot. All effects that can be shaken off within a day.

So, what do you think Plot Armor means if not reducing the effect of a given hit?

 

[JamesonCourage]

Here is 3E's definition of hit points, and it's the one I like the best:
Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

Just a point here.

Isn't "the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one" precisely what Plot Armor is? You mentioned earlier about many arrows hitting the target, denting armor and whatnot. All effects that can be shaken off within a day.

So, what do you think Plot Armor means if not reducing the effect of a given hit?

To me, the quote pretty clearly states that there is still a "hit" within the fiction, though. It says "and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one." A less serious what? A less serious blow. What is a blow? It's a connection. It can be a "glancing blow", but it's still a physical connection. With that in mind, I'd disagree with permerton's take on this potentially being "dodging" or "arrow cutting." And, I might disagree with your take on it, if you think it means "reducing the effect of a given hit" to the point of saying "the hit never happened."

Now, don't get me wrong, when I ran 3.X, I would say "you are barely able to knock the strike aside" at times, and have them mark HP off. So, I get this side of the conversation (so much so that I went with a HP (wound) / THP (fatigue/skill) split in hit points, where HP recovers after a long time, but THP recovers quickly).

However, I think that the language which describes hit point damage in 3.X is pretty clear. It's reducing a blow, yes, but it's not full-on Plot Armor. HP represents your ability to turn a hit that connects into a less serious hit, not your ability to land on a pile of feathers, completely dodge, get divine intervention, or the like (which means that certain effects have all sorts of weird interactions in 3.X, like falling damage, being immersed in lava, etc., unless you really stress the "the ability to take physical punishment and keep going" aspect of hit points).

That HP model definitely has problems when it comes to having an extremely diverse narrative, and I understand the want for a more dynamic mechanic (HP is Plot Armor). Again, I don't know how much I like a "default" being chosen in 5e; maybe they should just go with "HP has meant these things over time:

• . Choose what works best for your group." The obvious problem following this, of course, is designing things that deal HP damage, and things that deal damage (falling, landing on lava) that can't deal with "HP as 3.X defines it" easily.
  
  But hey, nobody said this is easy. That's why I support a split in HP (meat and non-meat), but I doubt that'll be the default. As always, play as what like

 

[pemerton]

I'd disagree with permerton's take on this potentially being "dodging" or "arrow cutting."

What does one call a dodge that doesn't quite work, but does manage to turn what otherwise would be a serious blow into a less-serious one? A near-dodge?

 

[JamesonCourage]

What does one call a dodge that doesn't quite work, but does manage to turn what otherwise would be a serious blow into a less-serious one? A near-dodge?

Attempted dodge? I know that the dictionary describes it this way:

dodge
v. dodged, dodg·ing, dodg·es
1. To avoid (a blow, for example) by moving or shifting quickly aside.

To "dodge" would be to avoid the blow. If you didn't avoid the blow, you didn't successfully dodge. Just as a language thing, I think. So, a "failed dodge" might be the right term. "Though he failed to dodge the blow, he did turn a killing blow into nothing more than a shallow cut on his arm." Something like that. As always, play what you like

 

[jrowland]

I would say to "Dodge a blow" is to run over the attacker with your Dodge Ram 1500. Justice, redneck-style.

 

[Hussar]

Meh, I think we're splitting hairs pretty fine here. A blow that is turned into a miss ("full plot protection") vs a blow that is turned into an inconsequential contact that causes no long term injury is a distinction that really doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it?

Both are entirely recoverable in a very short period of time. It simply doesn't matter. And if HP are turning serious blows into minor bruises and whatnot, can a character not be at full hp, even if he's got a black eye and some knicks and bruises? Does full HP HAVE to mean that I'm completely healed?

Good grief, as I get older, I don't think I'm ever completely healed anymore.

 

[Mercutio01]

Does full HP HAVE to mean that I'm completely healed.

For me? Yes.

Good grief, as I get older, I don't think I'm ever completely healed anymore.

Me neither. But my hit point total is probably less than it was 5 years ago, and definitely way less than it was 15 years ago. I think each year that I live under my max HP, my max HP drops.

 

[I'm A Banana]

A blow that is turned into a miss ("full plot protection") vs a blow that is turned into an inconsequential contact that causes no long term injury is a distinction that really doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it?

There's a lot of room in between "it connected and didn't kill you" and "it's inconsequential."

ESPECIALLY for fantasy hero badasses who might be holding their intestines in one hand and hewing apart the legions of devils with the other and be pretty fine once they've had a few days to let their digestive tract readjust itself.

So the distinction between a hit and a non-hit can be important for the feel of the world and the feel of the heroics, too.

 

[Mercutio01]

You mentioned earlier about many arrows hitting the target, denting armor and whatnot. All effects that can be shaken off within a day.

Individually, sure. But all of those taken together? Not so much. Some of them can be shrugged off easier than others.

that causes no long term injury

I think your definition of "short-term" and mine must be different. A bruise still hurts tomorrow. A small cut still hurts tomorrow. But they're not long-term injuries (deep gashes, broken bones). One or two short-term injuries (ie a few hit points) can be shrugged off and patched up enough to not bother me tomorrow. But a handful of those or more are still going to affect me tomorrow. Case in point the example I used with my wife and her bike a few weeks ago. Her nose is still sensitive. I'd say she's pretty much completely healed, but all it would take is to tweak her nose lightly and she'd scream bloody murder. And it's weeks later now, with most of the rest of the wounds healed up (except her knee, which opened up again a few days after the stitches came out and still hurts a lot when she knocks it lightly against a table leg or a child mistakenly grabs the wrong one.

So, she's still not back to full HP (at least as far as I'd call it) whereas under 4E she would have been back to full HP the next day, fully functional in all areas.

Again, it's not precise process simulation, but to me, the loss of hit points equals a loss of ability and is itself a definition of a wound because now fewer wounds can be taken before death.

So, yeah, I'd say full HP means completely healthy. I've got a cold and a sneeze and the beginnings of a cough today. My HP are lower than they were yesterday.