The Hoplite (think Spartan, Greek, Roman)

[Meeki]

Actually guisarme and ranseur are not exotic and both have special things you can do with them.

Most of my suggestions were due to wording even if you said the same things its not standard terminology.

Also do not assume people will allow monkey grip, for one I do not. Letting a class grant this ability for (polearms or w/e) I would be fine with. Also you will never see someone taking this class and weilding a spear unless its for pure flavor. In the pre-req's I would take out polearm and add in hafted reach weapon (if that is what are you going for) or just hafted two handed weapon or just have a list of examples (guisarme, glaive, halberd, ranseur, long spear, or anything similar) just something more clear than polearms. Usually I don't tend to think of a spear as a polearm even though it is but clarifying what is to be used would make it more flexible IMO. Again a halberd is a polearm but it lacks reach so does it count?

When I said there is no facing in D&D I meant there is no facing mechanic, you can turn around freely and you do not decalre which way your character is facing.

Out of combat like in sneaking situations facing may be important but mechanically it does not exist. There is left and right of your character from the view point of the player but you can turn freely so there is no point in saying to the left of the hoplite. Since I can turn be facing the opposite direction of my ally and he will be "to my left" so I can use my shield but even though I am facing the opposite direction I take no penalty for doing so. My rear is towards the enemy but there is no difference in my AC or antyhing because of it, in fact I can even see my enemy although he is "behind" me.

What if the hoplite uses his sheild in his right hand :O. One last thing why and when would a hoplite ever use this if he has to use his polearm? Its not very synergistic even if it fits with the iconic hoplite. This class is not a hoplite though its a swiss pikeman or halbadier. Move fast, light armor, polearm, and is Swiss so he has better saves than you

 

[Tyonisius]

This gets my vote. This prestige class should possess puissance with javelins and spears that no other class can touch. A halberd-wielding Spartan totally kills the image for me.

I do see what you mean regarding the halberd, however, this isn't a limitation I want to place on my players (the Hoplite I am building does not use a halberd however).

Are you trying to reproduce the "300" Spartans from the movie or the historical ones? Historical Spartans wore heavy armor and used the equivalent of tower shields and didn't jump around.

More of a mix of the two I suppose. While yes, Spartans wore heavy armor for their time, when brought into a Medeival time setting I felt it was closer to Medium, possibly even light armor. I'm not going for 100% Historic Spartan because as you said, what fun is that when being a Spartan is built around being in an army of like individuals.

Staying in formation was the cornerstone of their success (being Lawful helps too). Whereas the "300" Spartans fought in speedos, helms, and large shields with lots of jumping. But note that even in the movie, they had their greatest losses when they broke rank.

In the movie and also historically, when they did break rank to fight, they were very brutal and down right scary.

Personally, I'd grant them tower shield and heavy armor proficiencies and kill the jumping abilities. And increase the bonuses to fighting in formation.

You are welcome to take the class and mold it that way for a campaign you are running, however in your average campaign, not centered around Spartans, you wouldn't have more than one of these in a group... two if you are lucky and I'm trying to build something that works in the campaigns I run.

But then how fun is it to be the only Spartan in the group when your special abilities work best only with other Spartans?

Exactly. While I do not mind any criticism about the class not fitting 100% into the Spartan ideal, I am more looking for feed back on it's balanace as a prestige class. What about that? Do you feel that as is, while not being a perfect representation of the Spartan soldier that it's balanced?

I really appreciate your feed back and don't want to make anyone think that I am trying to be rude with anything I say, whether I agree with or criticize your criticism. The leaping abilities were primarily implemented to make the Spartan Hoplite balanced when it's not teamed up with half a dozen or more of it's fell soldier.

Thanks again.

 

[Tyonisius]

Actually guisarme and ranseur are not exotic and both have special things you can do with them.

Ah, very good point, I'll add a specific list in the future after my doctor's appoint. I gots me some Pneumonia... yay!

Most of my suggestions were due to wording even if you said the same things its not standard terminology.

I changed a lot of the wording as you suggested, some of it is written in the same fashion as the players hand book though.

Also do not assume people will allow monkey grip, for one I do not. Letting a class grant this ability for (polearms or w/e) I would be fine with. Also you will never see someone taking this class and weilding a spear unless its for pure flavor. In the pre-req's I would take out polearm and add in hafted reach weapon (if that is what are you going for) or just hafted two handed weapon or just have a list of examples (guisarme, glaive, halberd, ranseur, long spear, or anything similar) just something more clear than polearms. Usually I don't tend to think of a spear as a polearm even though it is but clarifying what is to be used would make it more flexible IMO. Again a halberd is a polearm but it lacks reach so does it count?

I'm not assuming that people will allow monkey grip, I'm assuming that I will allow it. It can be taken by anyone who wants to use it and adjusted to fit their campaign. Yes, the spear itself is lacking when compared with other polearms with reach, in fact my Hoplite character is probably going to use a Heavy Spear (or is it called Great Spear) something like that. I believe it's in the Arms and Equipment book. I'm going to work on an allowed polearm list after my doctor's appointment.

When I said there is no facing in D&D I meant there is no facing mechanic, you can turn around freely and you do not decalre which way your character is facing.

Out of combat like in sneaking situations facing may be important but mechanically it does not exist. There is left and right of your character from the view point of the player but you can turn freely so there is no point in saying to the left of the hoplite. Since I can turn be facing the opposite direction of my ally and he will be "to my left" so I can use my shield but even though I am facing the opposite direction I take no penalty for doing so. My rear is towards the enemy but there is no difference in my AC or antyhing because of it, in fact I can even see my enemy although he is "behind" me.

I do understand what you mean now by a facing mechanic, in the use of the Shield Ally ability it would affect the direction an attack can come from and still have the increased Shield bonus applied to the AC required for that attack to hit.

What if the hoplite uses his sheild in his right hand :O. One last thing why and when would a hoplite ever use this if he has to use his polearm? Its not very synergistic even if it fits with the iconic hoplite. This class is not a hoplite though its a swiss pikeman or halbadier. Move fast, light armor, polearm, and is Swiss so he has better saves than you

Spartan Hoplites used their shields to shield the soldier standing to their left. It doesn't make sense that they would have wielded the shield in their right hand. I believe it was a requirement of the historic Spartan Hoplites. I've address the light armor complaint previously. I don't feel that the armor the Spartan Hoplites wore would qualify a heavy armor in a medieval setting, making it medium possibly even light. Thats a matter of personal opinion though. And a hoplite would use this to protect an Ally with a low AC or that was possibly close to dying. I'm not sure what wielding a polearm has to do with it, unless you are referring to the fact that polearms are, for the most part, two handed. That issue is addressed by my allowance of the monkey grip feat.

Thanks for all your feedback. Other than it's lack of historical value, what do you feel about the balance of the class?

 

[Meeki]

Well some of its abilities revolving around the shield will be worthless if the hoplite doesn't pick up monkey grip. Even if you allow it that doesn't mean they will take it and it is a flaw of the class even in your campaign world. Allowing the feat doesn't fix the issue. If you are essentially forcing someone to grab monkey grip then why not make it a pre-req or just put it in the class.
Other than that it seems fine although I can see some of the abilities being abused hard, such as leaping thrust. Extra rage str + double bonus to jump checks + extra bonus for more speed + SF(jump) = lots of extra damage. At level 10 when you get leaping thrust you can have 13 ranks + 10 from str (20 str) + 3 from SF = 26 + additional movement over 30 feet so if I was playing this class I would focus on leaping thrust and have like 31 jump at level 10 doing probably around 5d6 points of extra damage. More if I entered as barbarian and was able to rage. It's not horridly broken but just somethign to think about, especially when compared to sneak attack. Take leaping charge or w/e that feat is and you can do 3x power attack.

I'm not complaining about light armor, in fact i think that it helps balance out the class. I don't really care about its historical value but I was just commenting on the whole idea that its not really a spartan hoplite maybe change the name to something else?

As for the shield discussion, maybe to represent direction of attack have the hoplite pick an opponent that the shield bonus will work against or he can pick x many opponents based off his level or something. This will help capture the protecting the ally from a certain direction aspect.

On gouge it says once per level per day but should that be once per day per level? That's why i was confused on its use.

Really I think its a neat class that's why I'm spending so much time providing "constructive criticism" so don't take offense at all.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Overcoming the one-handed spear problem is really quite simple. here's what i did in my Master at Arms: Hoplite product:

Spearman (Ex): The hoplite is a master of his chosen weapon, the spear, and has received special training in its handling. This training allows the hoplite to handle the spear in a unique fashion, gaining a tactical advantage over other spear wielders. The hoplite may use the standard spear as a one-handed weapon at no penalty, allowing him to employ a shield.

Perosnally, I think adaptive polearm really doesn't fit the flavor of the Spartan, since he really didn't use a polearm. The doru was a 7- to 9-foot spear that was used in one hand. I honestly think it would be kind of funny to run into a hoplite using a ranseur.

Also, leaping thrust is very complicated, and since there is no restriction on how many times it can be used in a day, it's too powerful, especially once greater leaping thrust is gained.

Just my .02.

BD

 

[Kisanji Arael]

This is just my suggestion, since I have a habit of being nit-picky for realism over game-balance reasons. If game balance is more important, than just ignore me.

Joe: Okay, why do you feel that you're qualified to join our party?
Stabbitas: Well, I am a master of the spear. Once I draw blood, I can twist my spears to enter the intestines, causing them to die even if they run. I call it "gouge."
Joe: Really? Interesting; so you're a cut & run kind of person.
Stabbitas: I suppose you could say that.
Joe: Any restrictions on this skill?
Stabbitas: Well, elementals and golems don't bleed, and I the one time I used it on a slime, I didn't get my spear out for three hours. So that's out.
Joe: Understandable.
Stabbitas: And sometimes, really strong opponents just don't seem to notice the blood coming out.
Joe: Again, I understand. We've all been there.
Stabbitas: Oh, and I can only use it three times a day.
Joe: Uh... why's that?
Stabbitas: My doctor said I'm at risk of developing carpal tunnel.
Joe: I see. *pause* Now are you sure that adventuring is the right career option for you?

That's what came into my head when I read gouge. Now don't get me wrong; it makes jsut as little sense in the Duellist as it does here. But, if you want it, here is an idea for it. Let them use it after they've been fighting an opponent in single combat for 2 rounds, or if they've watched him fight someone else for a minute. Every ally that attacks in melee causes a distraction to this, adding 1 round. If the opponent cannot be fully seen, then that round doesn't count. 1/encounter (carpal tunnel), plus 1 use at 6th level and one at 9th.

 

[Tyonisius]

Well some of its abilities revolving around the shield will be worthless if the hoplite doesn't pick up monkey grip. Even if you allow it that doesn't mean they will take it and it is a flaw of the class even in your campaign world. Allowing the feat doesn't fix the issue. If you are essentially forcing someone to grab monkey grip then why not make it a pre-req or just put it in the class.

I actually made it or a similar ability a prereq. for the class before you made this post so... =P

Other than that it seems fine although I can see some of the abilities being abused hard, such as leaping thrust. Extra rage str + double bonus to jump checks + extra bonus for more speed + SF(jump) = lots of extra damage. At level 10 when you get leaping thrust you can have 13 ranks + 10 from str (20 str) + 3 from SF = 26 + additional movement over 30 feet so if I was playing this class I would focus on leaping thrust and have like 31 jump at level 10 doing probably around 5d6 points of extra damage. More if I entered as barbarian and was able to rage. It's not horridly broken but just somethign to think about, especially when compared to sneak attack. Take leaping charge or w/e that feat is and you can do 3x power attack.

It is powerful, and I do see how it could be abused to a degree. And I may swap out the Improved Leaping Thrust for another ability that I think might be fun. I see a lot of limitations to the Leaping Thrust. While yes it is possible to do 5d6 points of extra damage at level 10 with this class, the Spartan Hoplite would be limited to only 1 attack with that extra damage. But in order to get that extra damage again he has to be able to do a charge, which means he either has to pick a new target the appropriate distance away and attack them (possibly provoking an attack of opportunity from the opponent he is leaving). If by chance there is only one enemy, then in order to benefit from the Leaping Thrust ability he would have to move away from the opponent one turn (again provoking an attack of opportunity) then his next turn he would have to charge again. I don't see how it's broken compared to the Sneak attack ability. You can only do 1 attack with Leaping Thrust a round and deal the extra damage. With Sneak Attack if the situation is correct you can do the extra damage to every attack you deal that round. Now if you bring the Improved Leaping Thrust ability into play, that might be a bit broken, I was just trying to think of a way to make it useful at higher levels, though I suppose that as long as you can increase your jump skill it can keep being useful. As I said, I may do away with the Improved Thrusting ability all together cause I think you may be right.

I'm not complaining about light armor, in fact i think that it helps balance out the class. I don't really care about its historical value but I was just commenting on the whole idea that its not really a spartan hoplite maybe change the name to something else?

Yeah, I can agree with that. While the Spartan Hoplite was the original inspiration for this class, I have included some of the Greek Hoplites from the Troy movies... Brad pit does a kind of Leaping Thrust in his main battle with Hector in the movie... so maybe just Hoplite would do?

As for the shield discussion, maybe to represent direction of attack have the hoplite pick an opponent that the shield bonus will work against or he can pick x many opponents based off his level or something. This will help capture the protecting the ally from a certain direction aspect.

Yeah, that can work in similar fashion. Good idea, thanks. Just need to determine a good way to word it.

On gouge it says once per level per day but should that be once per day per level? That's why i was confused on its use.

I believe both of them mean the same thing... once per level (lets say he's level 4 Hoplite, thats 4 times) then per day (means he can do it 4 times in 1 day). The other was once per day (means he can do it 1 time a day) per level (lets say he is level 4 again...) it still ends up at 4 times a day. I worded it the same as the Monk's Stunning Fist ability in the 3.0 PHB, but either way, its the same number of times.

Really I think its a neat class that's why I'm spending so much time providing "constructive criticism" so don't take offense at all.

Not at all, man... or woman, not sure which, no offense there either. I really appreciate all the criticism you are giving me.

Overcoming the one-handed spear problem is really quite simple. here's what i did in my Master at Arms: Hoplite product:

Spearman (Ex): The hoplite is a master of his chosen weapon, the spear, and has received special training in its handling. This training allows the hoplite to handle the spear in a unique fashion, gaining a tactical advantage over other spear wielders. The hoplite may use the standard spear as a one-handed weapon at no penalty, allowing him to employ a shield.

That is an interesting ability, but I've already addressed this issue by having a prerequisite of an ability or feat like the Monkey Grip feat. I like it better as a prereq because to me RP wise it shows a dedication to the polearm of their choice.

Perosnally, I think adaptive polearm really doesn't fit the flavor of the Spartan, since he really didn't use a polearm. The doru was a 7- to 9-foot spear that was used in one hand. I honestly think it would be kind of funny to run into a hoplite using a ranseur.

Well, first, and I could be wrong here, but I'm fairly sure that a 7-9 foot spear counts a polearm. The decision to wield it in one hand doesn't change that fact.

Also, leaping thrust is very complicated, and since there is no restriction on how many times it can be used in a day, it's too powerful, especially once greater leaping thrust is gained.

Well, I really don't think it's very complicated but maybe that is because I'm a very number oriented person. The chart, in my opinion, makes it really easy. Other than the actual extra damage rolls and jump check, it's basically a normal charge attack as it's described in the PHB. I personally don't think that the Improved Thrusting Feat is broken, I've listed it's limitedness previously, however, I am probably going to do away with it and introduce a new ability that I like.

Just my .02.

And despite in disagreements I may have with your or anyone elses .02 I really appreciate it all.

 

[Tyonisius]

This is just my suggestion, since I have a habit of being nit-picky for realism over game-balance reasons. If game balance is more important, than just ignore me.

Joe: Okay, why do you feel that you're qualified to join our party?
Stabbitas: Well, I am a master of the spear. Once I draw blood, I can twist my spears to enter the intestines, causing them to die even if they run. I call it "gouge."
Joe: Really? Interesting; so you're a cut & run kind of person.
Stabbitas: I suppose you could say that.
Joe: Any restrictions on this skill?
Stabbitas: Well, elementals and golems don't bleed, and I the one time I used it on a slime, I didn't get my spear out for three hours. So that's out.
Joe: Understandable.
Stabbitas: And sometimes, really strong opponents just don't seem to notice the blood coming out.
Joe: Again, I understand. We've all been there.
Stabbitas: Oh, and I can only use it three times a day.
Joe: Uh... why's that?
Stabbitas: My doctor said I'm at risk of developing carpal tunnel.
Joe: I see. *pause* Now are you sure that adventuring is the right career option for you?

That's what came into my head when I read gouge. Now don't get me wrong; it makes jsut as little sense in the Duellist as it does here. But, if you want it, here is an idea for it. Let them use it after they've been fighting an opponent in single combat for 2 rounds, or if they've watched him fight someone else for a minute. Every ally that attacks in melee causes a distraction to this, adding 1 round. If the opponent cannot be fully seen, then that round doesn't count. 1/encounter (carpal tunnel), plus 1 use at 6th level and one at 9th.

Dude, don't do that! You had me laughing so hard I puked. I've got Pneumonia and Bronchitis so that might have something to do with it too though =D Anyway, I can see the whole "realism" thing you mentioned. Game-balance is more important to me... since I am going to be playing in a fantasy world, not a real one. I'd say that your reinactment could be done about the Stunning Fist feat of the monk as well, but I suppose as real people and not characters we could say that the limited use of the ability is because he only has so much Ki? But it doesn't state that directly in the PHB. As always, while I may not agree with your criticism, I greatly appreciate it and may try to come up with a realistic reason for there to be an in-game limit on the use.

 

[rowport]

I really like the idea of the class, and all the base elements are well-balanced (saves, abilities, hp, etc.). My suggestion would be to use other similar abilities to model instead of creating new ones. That will "standardize" the class and make it tighter. Specifically:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Good, especially with the light armor restrictions. Use restrictive language from Ranger class combat styles.

Adaptive Polearm: This one is OK.

Gouge: This one is OK, but apply the restrictive language from Rogue class sneak attack (i.e. no constructs or undead).

Improved Gouge: This one is OK.

Impressive Leg Strength: Instead of creating a new ability, give Leap of the Heavens as a bonus feat.

Fearless Resolve: Use immunity language from Paladin class.

Fleet of Foot: This is good, with the Run feat as a bonus feat plus the increasing base movement. Use language from either Monk or Barbarian class abilities, keeping in mind whether you want stacking limits-- the Monk gets enhancement bonuses while Barbarian gets unnamed bonuses.

Leaping Thrust/Greater Leaping Thrust: Instead of creating a new ability, give Leap Attack as a bonus feat.

Soldier's Fortune: Use Divine Grace ability language from Paladin class.

Snaking Polearm: This is good.

Shield Wall: You want PHALANX FIGHTING as a bonus feat (Complete Warrior, I think).

Shield Ally: Use the language from the Dwarven Defender ability.

EDIT: I would also suggest adding Monkey Grip as a prerequisite feat.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

I heard your joke, and then I threw up.

I... really wish people would stop having this reaction to my humor.

And for the record, yeah. I removed all 1/day skills for which I couldn't come up with a reason why they would be 1/day. To give a few examples, Barbarians kept the per day limit because of physical limits of the human body. However, bards can exceed their daily limit, but every time they do it adds to the chance of their getting a splitting headache (for instrumentalists), which means no bardic music (instrumental) and -4 to concentration, will, and a bunch of other stuff, or losing their voice (for vocalists), which means no bardic music [vocal; instrumental still allowed (until they get a headache)], -4 to a bunch of stamina and charisma based skills; oh, and obviously, they can't talk or use spells with verbal components. (Side note, really not trying to hijack this; ignore me)