The Hoplite (think Spartan, Greek, Roman)

[Tyonisius]

I... really wish people would stop having this reaction to my humor.

That's funny too. Anyway, with my particular reaction it just shows that it was really funny and I'm really sick.

 

[Tyonisius]

I really like the idea of the class, and all the base elements are well-balanced (saves, abilities, hp, etc.). My suggestion would be to use other similar abilities to model instead of creating new ones. That will "standardize" the class and make it tighter. Specifically:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Good, especially with the light armor restrictions. Use restrictive language from Ranger class combat styles.

Adaptive Polearm: This one is OK.

Gouge: This one is OK, but apply the restrictive language from Rogue class sneak attack (i.e. no constructs or undead).

Improved Gouge: This one is OK.

Impressive Leg Strength: Instead of creating a new ability, give Leap of the Heavens as a bonus feat.

Fearless Resolve: Use immunity language from Paladin class.

Fleet of Foot: This is good, with the Run feat as a bonus feat plus the increasing base movement. Use language from either Monk or Barbarian class abilities, keeping in mind whether you want stacking limits-- the Monk gets enhancement bonuses while Barbarian gets unnamed bonuses.

Leaping Thrust/Greater Leaping Thrust: Instead of creating a new ability, give Leap Attack as a bonus feat.

Soldier's Fortune: Use Divine Grace ability language from Paladin class.

Snaking Polearm: This is good.

Shield Wall: You want PHALANX FIGHTING as a bonus feat (Complete Warrior, I think).

Shield Ally: Use the language from the Dwarven Defender ability.

EDIT: I would also suggest adding Monkey Grip as a prerequisite feat.

Can you tell me what book I can find Leap of the Heavens and Leap Attack in, or better yet, tell me what they do incase I don't have the book? I really like the Leaping Thrust ability (I got rid of greater Leaping Thrust). I think I looked at Leap Attack at some point in the past at a friend's house and I didn't really like it, but that could have been something else.

The way I wrote Soldier's Fortune is almost verbatim to the way Divine Grace is written (now mind you I am using a 3.0 PHB not 3.5). As for the sneak attack and gouge, I can't think of anything that I want gouge to work on that sneak attack does not work on so I'll type it up the same.

Phalanx Fighting might be a good substitute. Hoplites don't wield light weapons generally, but I guess I could just make their favored pole weapon function as a light weapon for the purpose of this feat. What do you think about that idea? I don't think Phalanx fighting is quite as strong as it should be... Personally I feel that most of the feats that require both characters to have it are a bit weak. But it might work just as well.

As far as shield ally and the dwarven defender go... I'm not sure what ability you are saying I should make this similar to... none of the Dwarven Defenders ability apply to an ally. I think you might mean the Defensive Stance ability, but it doesn't quite fit the Shield Ally ability so if you don't mind, please expand on this idea some.

Thanks for the input, glad you like the idea. Keep your ideas coming.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Perosnally, I think adaptive polearm really doesn't fit the flavor of the Spartan, since he really didn't use a polearm. The doru was a 7- to 9-foot spear that was used in one hand. I honestly think it would be kind of funny to run into a hoplite using a ranseur.

Perhaps you meant halberd, or voulge, or barchice?

Ranseurs, spetums, partisans, and tridents are handled just about the same as spears -- two-handed thrusting usually. Whereas polearms (halberds, voulges, barchies, glaives, guisarmes, etc.) are used primarly as two-handed swinging weapons with a secondary thrust. Polearms are head-heavy and have a very different balance from spears. It's not much of a stretch of the imagination that a master could wield a spetum, paritsan, or ranseur one-handed. But a bohemian ear-spoon? Personally that takes us beyond Medieval fantasy and into cartoon land.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Perhaps you meant halberd, or voulge, or barchice?

Ranseurs, spetums, partisans, and tridents are handled just about the same as spears -- two-handed thrusting usually. Whereas polearms (halberds, voulges, barchies, glaives, guisarmes, etc.) are used primarly as two-handed swinging weapons with a secondary thrust. Polearms are head-heavy and have a very different balance from spears. It's not much of a stretch of the imagination that a master could wield a spetum, paritsan, or ranseur one-handed. But a bohemian ear-spoon? Personally that takes us beyond Medieval fantasy and into cartoon land.

The ranseur is considered a polearm in the d20 system, i.e., a two-handed weapon with reach, that's how I meant it. My point about it being funny has nothing to do with the plausibility of wielding it in one hand, but rather that it would be an odd weapon for a hoplite-style character.

BD

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

While I do not mind any criticism about the class not fitting 100% into the Spartan ideal, I am more looking for feed back on it's balanace as a prestige class. What about that? Do you feel that as is, while not being a perfect representation of the Spartan soldier that it's balanced?

I think Meeki has a better handle on whether this class is balanced or not than myself. I defer to him in this particular matter.

However, I would never allow a character to wield a polearm one-handed nor allow any feats or class abilities that do the same. Personally that stretches Medieval fantasy into Cartoonland. Likewise I don't allow medium-size characters to wield 10' long swords.

Also I urge you to consider granting some improved abilities to throw javelins. For example, why not some kind of a multishot/manyshot feat allowing for two or more javelins thrown at the same time. The hoplite could throw the multiple javelins and then leap into battle. That's cooler to me than leaping into battle holding a bohemian ear-spoon in hand hand.

 

[Tyonisius]

I urge you to consider granting some improved abilities to throw javelins. For example, why not some kind of a multishot/manyshot feat allowing for two or more javelins thrown at the same time. The hoplite could throw the multiple javelins and then leap into battle. That's cooler to me than leaping into battle holding a bohemian ear-spoon in hand hand.

While I do like the idea of special abilities to throw javelins, the Hoplites did not imploy them as weapons from what I have researched. The Roman Hastati would throw pila before charging with their hasta but from what I've read, the Hoplites did not use a ranged weapon. In fact, during their use as infantry it was normal for either side of to have little or no ranged fighters or even calvary, though Calvary was sometimes used to protect the weak spot in the Phalanx. I think if I was going to make a Hastati class (which actually sounds really freaking cool) giving that class special abilities to throw multiple pila (which might be a bit difficult because pila were designed to bend after being used so that the enemy could not throw them back) or a regular javelin before charging in with their Hasta (or spear) would be a great idea.

 

[Tyonisius]

I am bumping this because I would like some more feed back focused on whether this class leans more toward Overpowered, Underpowered, or Balanced. Get back to me soon guys!

 

[Meeki]

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday and he informed me that monkey grip has been changed from 3.0? He told me it now only reduces the negatives to -2 for using a weapon one size category larger instead of the old way which essentially allow for someone to be considered "large" and weild a two handed weapon in one hand. Can anyone confirm this?

The class seems alright as far as balanced goes but again flesh out this issue with 2 handers and what not. If this is the new monkey grip then I would definitely allow it, the 3.0 version I do not.

Leap Attack allows an extra power attack multiplier when charging and jumping, essentially the same requirements for leaping thrust. When I was talking about comparing leaping thrust to sneak attack this is what I meant:
Leaping thrust effects all creatures, sneak attack is highly limited however may be used every round.
Sneak attack is granted by a class with 3/4 base attack and does not scale based on skill
Leaping thrust is granted to a prestige class with full base attack and scales based on skill, this class, just like a rogue, is designed to do alot of damage early in the fight in hopes of taking out the opponent quickly but I would argue leaping thrust is better (well the old one with improved leaping thrust) since it would definitely out damage sneak attack. Essentially the hoplite COULD charge one round, spring attack the next, charge, spring attack, charge, etc rinse and repeat most likely doing more damage than he would with full round attacks.

The new mighty twilring polearm is pretty neat. I have a question though are you going to let the hoplite make a bull ruse against all opponents in reach (since essentially he now has a 5 ft and 10 ft reach) or is he going to have to use 10 ft polearm restricted reach only or does he have a choice.

 

[Tyonisius]

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday and he informed me that monkey grip has been changed from 3.0? He told me it now only reduces the negatives to -2 for using a weapon one size category larger instead of the old way which essentially allow for someone to be considered "large" and weild a two handed weapon in one hand. Can anyone confirm this?

The way I think the Monkey grip feat works that I have been using is that it would allow a medium character to wield a large weapon (such as a Greatsword) one handed at a -2 to his attack rating. A small character would be able to wield a medium weapon (such as a long sword) one handed at a -2 to his attack rating.

The class seems alright as far as balanced goes but again flesh out this issue with 2 handers and what not. If this is the new monkey grip then I would definitely allow it, the 3.0 version I do not.

So is the version I described above the one you personally would allow?

Leap Attack allows an extra power attack multiplier when charging and jumping, essentially the same requirements for leaping thrust. When I was talking about comparing leaping thrust to sneak attack this is what I meant:
Leaping thrust effects all creatures, sneak attack is highly limited however may be used every round. Sneak attack is granted by a class with 3/4 base attack and does not scale based on skill Leaping thrust is granted to a prestige class with full base attack and scales based on skill, this class, just like a rogue, is designed to do alot of damage early in the fight in hopes of taking out the opponent quickly but I would argue leaping thrust is better (well the old one with improved leaping thrust) since it would definitely out damage sneak attack. Essentially the hoplite COULD charge one round, spring attack the next, charge, spring attack, charge, etc rinse and repeat most likely doing more damage than he would with full round attacks.

It is possible that he could charge leaping thrust, charge leaping thrust, etc. And it is possible that it would average out to doing more damage than his full round of attacks but with the removal of the Improved feat I think it balances out much better. Sneak attack doesn't scale with a skill but does scale with level, would it work out better if I scaled it with level? I really like the concept of using the jump skill in an attack, but if it's really unbalancing I might change it. Over all, I feel that, on average, sneak attack would be used more often than leaping thrust, but that would depend on the campaign and the type of creatures the DM likes to use really. In the campaigns I currently play in, there are 7 characters and 5 of them do some amount of sneak attack damage due to the DM's choice of enemies.

The new mighty twilring polearm is pretty neat. I have a question though are you going to let the hoplite make a bull ruse against all opponents in reach (since essentially he now has a 5 ft and 10 ft reach) or is he going to have to use 10 ft polearm restricted reach only or does he have a choice.

I hadn't thought about that. I initially just figured it would be for adjacent foes, but going out to all reaches wouldn't be a stretch. It might imbalance it more though? Let me know what you think about this Meeki, so far our input has been great. Thanks again!

 

[Meeki]

The monkey grip my friend told me about merely lets you reduce the penalty for using a weapon one size category larger with only a -2 penalty. It does not let you use a 2 hander one handed but it does let you use a large 2 handed greatsword 2 handed with a -2 penalty.