D&D 5E The Magical Martial


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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
That's explicitly because before GOT, magic is on a downward cycle.

Once GOT starts, the magic in the Great Houses start to come back. And with a revenge.
That's the arc. Low Magic world becomes Mid Magic world.

People can talk to animals, see in their eyes, talk to dragons, and come back from the dead.
100% supernatural humans.
Absolutely. I have no problem with supernatural humans. And in a GOT game, I would expect those to be supernatural traits some people have, because from the perspective of hypothetical players of that game, those are supernatural traits.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Do rhey have more than two eyes, arms, legs, lungs, and nostrils? Have orange blood instead of red? Non-mammalian reproductive organs? Five chambered hearts? Three stomachs? Able to leap tall buildings with a single bound? Metallic skeletons? Is there nothing that matches a normal human!?!?!
In GOT, they have magic blood.

Instead of turning you into a sorcerer, it lets you command or talk to animals, plants, or dragons OR cast spells in conjunction with a spellcaster.

100% supernatural humans.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
In GOT, they have magic blood.

Instead of turning you into a sorcerer, it lets you command or talk to animals, plants, or dragons OR cast spells in conjunction with a spellcaster.

100% supernatural humans.
But it has an explanation. A few select humans can do these things for a reason other than, "It's fantasy! You can do whatever you want! Weird that that isn't enough for you".
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
But it has an explanation. A few select humans can do these things for a reason other than, "It's fantasy! You can do whatever you want! Weird that that isn't enough for you".
Exactly.

Like I said in that deleted thread.

D&D used to have explanations.
They were very rigid and limited the types of characters that could exist.
They took them out in 5e to be inclusive.
So now you have to put your own explanation back in or the game stops making sense if you look too hard.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Exactly.

Like I said in that deleted thread.

D&D used to have explanations.
They were very rigid and limited the types of characters that could exist.
They took them out in 5e to be inclusive.
So now you have to put your own explanation back in or the game stops making sense if you look too hard.
Yeah. I miss when the game made more sense.
 

ezo

I cast invisibility
In DnD a man can swim in full plate armor across the mississipi river, with no discernible practice, training or exerted effort.

In DnD, a scholar who has never picked up a pack in his life can slug on an 80 lbs backpack, take an 8 hour march across rough terrain, go to sleep, and do it again the next morning. For a month.

In DnD, your average Knight is as strong as a silverback gorilla, which in the real world is considered about as strong as 20 average mean. Gladiators are stronger still.

In DnD, a street thief with no training, can free-hand scale a 9 story building in six seconds. Everyone can do so in thirty seconds.

In DnD, everyone from most every dimension speaks the same language, with barely any regional variance.

In DnD, everyone across dimensions uses the same coinage value. A gold piece in a poor village in Flnaderes is the exact same value in Sigil or in Strixhaven academy.

There are more "exceptions" to DnD being like the real world Earth than there are things modeled after it. The closest things are really "it is a planet with water where people have jobs"
1. A man has an average STR 10, well below the STR 15 requirement, so his speed is 20, making his swim speed 10 feet. The Mississippi river averages about a mile wide (let's round to a nice 5000 ft). The Mississippi river also has the strongest average current of any river in the U.S. at almost 600,000 cubic feet per second. This would most certainly require a Strength (Athletics) check to make progress. Oh, and given these parameters the water would also be difficult terrain, further reducing speed to effectively 5 feet.

Now, your claim is with "no discernible practice, training..." so we can keep the DC at 20 (hard) given the conditions, but at least his can make a check dispite having a +0 modifier to the check (no proficiency since no practice, training; and no STR modifier).

Given 5000 feet at 5 ft/ round means 1000 checks to "gain any distance". 1000 checks for DC 20 Strength (Athletics) at +0 would average of 20,000 checks to swim the distance. At 6 seconds per round, that is 33 hours and 20 minutes of swimming. Which of course brings exhaustion into play, which with a CON 10 and no saving throw proficiency for the average man, we can expect the first level of exhaustion around hour 10, which imposes disadvantage on further Strength (Atheletics) checks. At this point, the man would be less than one-third of the way across. With disadvantage, the remaining 14000 checks for DC 20 become 280,000 checks. At this point, it would take over 19 DAYS to make all the checks required to finish the swim. Exhaustion would kill the man long before that point could ever be reached.

2. Sure. A scholar would probably be Intelligent enough to distribute the weight evenly, use a walking stick, rest often, etc. For many days he would likely be sore, but he could do it.

3. Well, we don't have stats for the silverback gorilla so we'll never know. Besides, such claims are irrelevant and contradictory. One site claims the 20 average men or whatever as you do, and on the same site says 4 to 9.

4. I guess you must mean the subclass "thief" so you have a full climbing speed (assumed 30 feet). Which is 3rd level, and certainly not a rogue with "no training". Otherwise, much depends on the building. Few handholds would demain ability checks as well. Failure might be no progress, or might be actual failure. 🤷‍♂️

5. Is that how it works in real life? ;) (j/k)

6. Incredible coincidence, huh? Must be magic! ;) (j/k)

That was fun. Anyway, we all know D&D (as presented) is not a simulation, but a game. That game can be based as much on "medieval Europe" or whatever as you choose, or could be completely foreign. But we shy from that in general because for most groups to embrace the "fantasy" it must be grounded in "reality".

He has skin stronger than enchanted steel. He is stronger than a rhinocerous at full charge. He can reach inside your mind and twist your worst fears into existence just from you being near him. His eyes can pierce any disguise and his voice echoes in your mind like black smoke. He is tough enough that he laughs off shotgun blasts and grenade. A missile strike MIGHT injury him severely enough to force him to retreat, if it even hits him, since he is faster than a horse at gallop

By the way, this is just a standard Pit Fiend, not even a named devil.
There is some (very well described!) narrative license going on here...

AC 17 (without DEX +2) is not stronger than enchanted steel, since non-enchanted steel can give you AC 18.

Pit Fiend STR 26, rhino STR 21. Both are large creatures and who is "stronger" at any moment would depend on the contested Strength checks. With a +3 net advantage, the Pit Fiend would "win" about 60% of the time. "Stronger"...? In an absolute sense, sure.

Yeah, it can make you frieghtened, has truesight, and telepahy. But he isn't faster than a horse (fly speed 60 vs. speed 60 for the horse...).

At any rate, there is nothing really "standard" about a Pit Fiend. I mean, honestly, come on. Maybe something a bit more common than a CR 20 fiend, arguably the most powerful non-named fiend in the game.

But hey, in a world of magic, a martial just needs magic to combat such a monster, they don't have to be magical. 🤷‍♂️
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
It also matters for the class fantasy. Do you want to play a character who succeeds without being superhuman in some way? Then you need to have a class to play that, at least in the earlier levels, doesn't have superhuman abilities by the standards of real life humans, at least barring the stretch that is action movie physics.

Except that is literally impossible.

Orcs are superhuman, dwarves are superhuman, genasi are super human. So the only thing you can do is play a human... who is as strong as a gorilla, aka as strong as 20 men. Or equally as dexterous.

If you play DnD by the rules written, you can never play someone without superhuman capabilities, even as a level 1 fighter.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Except that is literally impossible.

Orcs are superhuman, dwarves are superhuman, genasi are super human. So the only thing you can do is play a human... who is as strong as a gorilla, aka as strong as 20 men. Or equally as dexterous.

If you play DnD by the rules written, you can never play someone without superhuman capabilities, even as a level 1 fighter.
Funny. I'm sure your logic has convinced everyone here how hopeless a mundane character concept is. I'm sure WotC 5e's deep abstraction in the numbers arena you continually try to use to prove your point doesn't suggest those numbers aren't proof of superhuman powers for everyone.

Besides, I was talking about a class fantasy. race/species/ancestry/heritage is a separate metric.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I don't think you get to decided what mattes to other people, do you? Listen, this is not a big deal to me. I've played this game for 35+ years just fine with poor definitions in the rules. I simply stated my preference, I am not asking anyone to share it. I realize what seems simple and logical to me, doesn't apply to everyone else.

But, again, because we are getting hyper-focused on trying to define abilities as either "totally magic" or "actually extraordinary"... We haven't actually made any progress discussing abilities. While I certain you could totally drive them into submission with your logic after another ten years of insisting on your definition... the more we argue about exactly what to define these uncreated abilities as, the longer people are going to be "Well, I think it is stupid that you want to have the fighter do anything at all just because they want to. After all, you need a reason to cause someone to spontaneously combust three days after you hit them with an arrow."

Because we don't define the abilities A) They all end up being combat abilities and B) They can keep arguing with the most extreme example they can come up with, because obviously throwing your spear and setting off a thermonuclear explosion is magical^TM, while you are trying to do something else entirely.
 

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