D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Micah Sweet]

But, honestly, the term we use for it shouldn't matter.

Dragon Breath is, canonically, magical. It is magic of the background radiation of the multiverse, and so it cannot be dispelled, countered, or affected by an anti-magic field, but the designers have called it magic. But, if you read the description of dragon breath... none of that was stated. It is no where in the books. Why?

Because the only time it came up was when someone demanded to know if Dragon Breath was magical, and if it could be counterspelled. That's the reason this logic exists. I understand you want to have the precise mechanical definition, but honestly, you need to do that with so many things, only because of one set of abilities. The only time it matters whether a paladin's aura is magical, supernatural, or extraordinary is when you are interacting with dispel magic and anti-magic field. That's it. Otherwise, we've never needed to label these things.

Ki is a type of magic, but it isn't meant to interact with those three spells. Because those spells were designed... to deal with spells! So, if you set those three spells aside... really.. in the end... it doesn't matter. Is Ki magic or an supernatural force expressing the soul of a warrior? Both! Neither! Let the players decide on that. What we do know is that Monks have a Ki pool and they spend it to activate abilities. And what those abilities do. Why do fighters never mention ki?! Because they don't have a mechanical Ki pool that they spend for abilities. That's why. It is a mechanic first, but whatever force it is exists in all living things, just like the magic of the dragon.

Call it magic
Call it supernatural forces
Call it extraordinary training.

All of them are the same thing, in the end, until you need to specifically say "this is a spell that can be counterspelled" or "this is an effect that is suppressed by anti-magic fields". Until that point, the label doesn't actually mean anything, in the context of the game.

It also matters for the class fantasy. Do you want to play a character who succeeds without being superhuman in some way? Then you need to have a class to play that, at least in the earlier levels, doesn't have superhuman abilities by the standards of real life humans, at least barring the stretch that is action movie physics.

 

[dave2008]

But your point seems to be "therefore I need to define whether this is achieved magically, mystically, technologically or biologically" and... I don't care. It might change depending on the setting, or the flavor people want, but what is more directly impactful for the player is being able to leap 15 ft in the air.

That is fine if you don't, as it is fine if I care. Correct? These are just opinions and preferences. I don't mind if you have different desires than me. I do take offense to those who seem to think that if I don't share their view them I am doing fantasy wrong.

To be clear, I am not say that is your stance. In fact, I specifically don't think you have that viewpoint, but others have.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A lot of that is mirrored by unexplained fantasy stuff. How do Dwarves live so long? Where do gods come from? Why does magic exist?

This varies from author to author of course. The PHB has a ton of it though.

Many if those have explanations of some kind, though they may vary from setting to setting. I don't any if them being covered in the book or by the designers by, "because it's fantasy! You can do anything you want without explanation! Weird that you feel differently".

 

[dave2008]

But, honestly, the term we use for it shouldn't matter.

I don't think you get to decided what mattes to other people, do you? Listen, this is not a big deal to me. I've played this game for 35+ years just fine with poor definitions in the rules. I simply stated my preference, I am not asking anyone to share it. I realize what seems simple and logical to me, doesn't apply to everyone else.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In GOT, when a knight tries to fight a dragon...
They Die

In D&D, when a knight tries to fight a dragon
They might kill them

Ask D&D how that works,
The answer for 50 years: IDK?

And yet, GOT is clearly fantasy. It therefore apparently should bear no resemblance to the real world at all, because it's fantasy!

 

[dave2008]

Because play above level 20 isn't supported so no one was discussing it.

Yes it is. BECMI went well beyond 20. 3e had the epic level handbook. 4e went to 30 (sort of), and 5e has epic boons for post level 20 as well as a number of 3PP books that provide up to 40 levels.

The premise of the thread was to bring that line down to level 10 in order to justify remaining rigid with the rules and handwaving what the rules abstract means.

That wasn't the premise really. I brought in the level 10 line as my desire for a fictional, as of yet unwritten version, of the game. I also specifically said it was to bring all the goodness of 20 levels down to 10. It would functionally be your 20. It had absolutely nothing to do with your bold statement. I frankly find it shameful that you keep suggest that was the reason.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You can have your expectations but you’re also expected to apply a little thing called suspension of disbelief when maybe they turn out to be otherwise

Suspension of disbelief has limits, and when you have superhuman stuff happen with no explanation I can definitely see them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But you realize it is a chicken and an egg, right?

"They have extraordinary abilities and did something important, they must be related to the gods"
"They are related to the gods, they must have extraordinary abilities and have done something important"

These lead to the same end product. So claiming that the"god blood" came first isn't logical. Both are equally valid, and considering we can find extraordinary heroes and beings that WEREN'T related to the gods in myths and legends... the abilities likely came first.

Then those abilities have some other explanation, if they happen in a game. In a story maybe not, but again stories and games are different.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It isn't all or nothing.

It's that Game of Thrones ends up in the fantasy section of the bookstore because it has dragons, frozen zombies and such. Not because it faithfully simulates the hazards of real world naval combat.

If you're expecting a faithful representation of naval combat, maybe you don't pick up the book with the dragons and zombies in it.

Who's talking about naval combat?

 

[Gammadoodler]

Many if those have explanations of some kind, though they may vary from setting to setting. I don't any if them being covered in the book or by the designers by, "because it's fantasy! You can do anything you want without explanation! Weird that you feel differently".

Any fantastical thing they include without an explanation falls under exactly that definition.