The Myth of the Necessity of Magic Items

[DungeonMaester]

Sure. If every enemy you fight is a high level wizard or cleric who knows your identities, and can scry on you 24/7, and you can't thwart the scrying, and they have nothing else to do with their day but listen to you plan, or have one of their acolytes listen to your plans so that they can perfectly prepare their flawless counteroffensive, then that makes perfect sense.

That strains credibility further than the presence of too many magic items, though.

PCs should get plowed sometimes. It keeps the game challenging.

But they should also get to do the plowing, sometimes. That's part of being a hero in fantasy.

1) By the time a players can afford A Etheral cape and a +3 greatsword and a Cloak of Resistance is about the time a the Wizard would be throwing up a Scrying spell and readying a charges on a staff of fireball. So..What exactly do you think you are arguing?

2) Discrediting magic items in the game has been my stance through out the thread.

3) So is dieing. Yet even though players stock up on every class they can cross class into, and buy ever magic item they can afford, a 'un-ideal' Dm would give the bad guys powerful magic?

---Rusty

 

[DungeonMaester]

Since you described the "opponents will scale perfectly to whatever you prepare or purchase" as being a fact of your campaign in general, perhaps you could elaborate on how every single enemy sees their preparations and is able to prepare for them. I would consider an enemy wizard being able to watch my preparations (without the party ever detecting the observations) and having time to prepare perfect counters to be very occasionally realistic - and certainly not a constant expectation that I would say "yay!" for it being avoided.

Don't think this means EVERY bad guy goes out and stock piles magic weapons. That is just a ridiculous assumption.

---Rusty

 

[Darrell]

Yeah, some people might like that, but I just don't get it. If you are just going to sit around and yak (and that's pretty much all a commoner can do), why have stats or use dice at all? You might as well just hang out with your friends and talk. Just my 2 coppers.

It might just as easily be said, however, "if you are just going to sit around and roll dice (and that's pretty much all combat or task resolution boils down to), why have a defined character (race, class, etc.) at all? You might as well just hang out with your friends and roll for highest number or play 'high card/low card'."

Different people get different kinds of enjoyment out of the game. Nobody's form of enjoyment, game-wise, is less 'valid' than another's because that 'other' does things differently.

Regards,
Darrell

 

[Darrell]

At some point, it's no more a game but some free-form acting. There is no problem with that, but you are clearly no more playing D&D.

How so? Our group leans a bit toward the 'free-form acting' side, admittedly; but we use the D&D/d20 rules system for task resolution and character definition. I've never heard of any requirement other than that for 'playing D&D.'

Regards,
Darrell

 

[Darrell]

Because in the D&D game, combat is the major focus of the system (rules) the "fire-power balance" often translate directly to "Spot-light balance".

Often, but not necessarily.

I'd also counter-argue that the 'game' is more than the 'rules.' Many aspects of roleplaying, especially those that my players enjoy, can't be quantified by 'rules.' That doesn't make them any less a part of the 'game.'

Regards,
Darrell

 

[marune]

How so? Our group leans a bit toward the 'free-form acting' side, admittedly; but we use the D&D/d20 rules system for task resolution and character definition. I've never heard of any requirement other than that for 'playing D&D.'

If you prefer free-form acting, I strongly recommend you to give a try a game that gives you ways to defines character outside of their combat abilities. You should also find that a "conflict resolution" system instead of a "task resolution" system will be better for your group.

Often, but not necessarily.

I'd also counter-argue that the 'game' is more than the 'rules.' Many aspects of roleplaying, especially those that my players enjoy, can't be quantified by 'rules.' That doesn't make them any less a part of the 'game.'

Like I said above, kids can have great fun with D&D miniatures and no rules at all, but when you choose a game, why not choose one that is aimed at what you like to do ?

You can do some acting while playing Monopoly too...

That being said, I'm not bashing the D&D game here, I'm just saying that D&D is not the best game for everyone wanting to play a table-top role-playing game. Instead of arguing hours long that D&D isn't good at X or Y that D&D was never supposed to support, just give a try to something different.

 

[NilesB]

1) By the time a players can afford A Etheral cape and a +3 greatsword and a Cloak of Resistance is about the time a the Wizard would be throwing up a Scrying spell and readying a charges on a staff of fireball. So..What exactly do you think you are arguing?

Not all foes are Wizards.

Wizards need to know you are coming to know to scry on you.

Not all foes are Wizards.

There are countermeasures to scrying.

Not all foes are Wizards.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

To get back to the main point.

To get back to the main point. This was originally about the issue of whether magic items are necessary or not correct?
*Balance-wise the game was designed with a certain level of expected magic effects available at each level, this was included when the designers weighed the overall balance.
*Removing magic items without providing another way to access the associated effects causes balance issues and requires more than a little work to get around.
*The question is what do you want to limit access to magic itself or just the items?

If the problem is the items themselves and their proliferation as well as the absurd amount of wealth by level that constantly increases you're not the only one. There are ways around it but they may seem even higher magic than normal. Mine follows
1.)Take the wealth by level chart then divide it by the gp/xp cost ratio for magic item crafting. You may have to play with the value slightly either way to achieve a curve that fits your campaign.
2.)This should give you a figure in XP by level. Add this to each level as bonus XP, you get it at each level up and it can only be spent on magical effects not leveling up, if you don't use it by your next level this bonus XP rolls up to the next level.
3.)All those magic items in the DMG, the ones that you're trying to get rid of, consider it a catalog of neat magical effects, they even have associated costs that either already give cost in XP or can be easily reverse engineered to cost in XP.
4.)To maintain balance let players buy the effects of magic items with their bonus XP which are applied to their characters as inherent effects or bonuses. In a way this is a lot like IH. Let's say the fighter buys several weapon properties. These properties now are applied to anything the pc uses as a weapon.

Whether its a sword, a mace, an oar, or their forehead. They can beat down an assailant with a flaming tankard of ale if that's what's at hand or use their teeth to do holy damage. Same thing with armor, or any other effect. Simply treat it as an inherent part of the character rather than gear by separating the effect from the item. The power level is the same, but now wealth by level is an option rather than a necessity. On top of this it means the only truly magic items left are temporary expendable magic items(such as wands and potions, etc. maybe not even these) and legacy items. No more need to frequently drop magic items suited to the party as their level increases.

 

[Seeten]

People saying balance is an illusion?

Check.

People saying magic items are only for powergamers and min/maxers?

Check.

People saying that there doesn't have to be a mechanical reason to choose a class?

Check.

People ignoring that other people like to play the game differently?

Double-check.

Yep, normal low-magic soapbox thread. Badwrong fun and everything.

Midget wins teh Intarwebz!

 

[Seeten]

Wow. You're like my "anti-ideal DM". Nothing says "wasted evening" like being told "all your effort in planning and preparation would have made the encounter too easy so I had to alter the encounter to make it tough again". Why not just tell the players that they and their actions don't matter in your game and that nothing they do is really important to the outcoume you've decided? Eventually, even if you don't tell them, they're going to realise they have no part in the game as thigns go from one mediocre enounter to another and the difficulty never changes no matter if they try or not.

Certainly, in such a campaign, magic items aren't needed to maintain balance, but then again, neither is PC involvement.

TBH, I wasnt going to respond to Maester because his statements were so antithetical to me as to not be worth even mentioning, but then Painandgreed goes and types up my reply.