D&D 5E The paladin conundrum

[Dausuul]

Consider the "gritty realism" resting rules from the DMG, page 267: A short rest is 8 hours and a long rest is 7 days. If you're running 2-3 encounters per day, "slow rests" will bring you in line with the recommended ratio of rests to encounters, forcing the paladin to ration his spell slots more carefully. It also works nicely with the overall atmosphere of Dark Sun.

 

[Green1]

Do NOT take anything ever away from players except in rare situations as it applies to canon powers. Some players are very good players and this should embraced, not nerfed.

That said, most Paladin builds have A LOT of trouble versus ranged attackers. Try enemy archers. They can hit with no penalty up to 150 ft, which on a battlemat is 30 squares. And, with penalty up to 600 (!). If they have cover or are up on walls or cliffs where you have to climb to get them, this will suck for Mr. Avenger Pally.

One of the deals when a melee powerhouse shines is using too small of a battlemat. A lot of times it is not intentional. You may have a limited sized table and when combat happens, you go with something 30 x 30 or a bit bigger which you can move one end of the battlefield to the other in a round just because of play area constraints. If that is the case, just claim more flat surface or you can make 1 square=10 for just that encounter. Or theater of the mind till you can get to them.

Arial opponents like manticores also suck for Mr. Pally.

 

[cmad1977]

More encounters per day. Problem solved. Bear in mind encounters are not necessarily fights.

 

[Asaris]

Also, Paladin's are going to shine a lot less against a horde of weaker creatures.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Is there an argument to revive the AD&D minimum stats requirements for Paladins?

A player may qualify from day 1 if rolling 4d6 drop lowest.

Otherwise, using point buy approach, it's a class that they have to, effectively, MC into when they (a) get their stats up and (b) display the necessary personal characteristics of a Paladin in the game thus far (this may include a trigger event for a vengeance paladin)?

I'd go so far as to say, following this format, that once level 1 in Paladin is achieved, the PC needs to remain Paladin for all subsequent levels gained - otherwise, where's your sworn oath, right?

I'm not a min-max fan, and neither am I a believer in allowing MC unless there's a strong in game reason beyond the mechanical meta game benefits - the whole "1 level dip" thing.

However, this could help answer this issue - as previously noted, back in the day the class was HARD to qualify for, and once granted, access gave you a lot of oomph. But the desire to retain the classic paladin in 5e means any old Tom, Dick, or Harriet can be one from scratch.

It won't help the OPs current situation but may help in future?

 

[discosoc]

I've found Paladins are kind of broken if your style is to run only one or two encounters per day. Not only can they unload their full potential without regret 9 times out of 10, but the inherent advantages of other classes that recharge on short rests doesn't come into play.

As someone else mentioned, the gritty realism rule is great for this (especially for Dark Sun, IMO).

 

[Psikerlord#]

Yep, vengeance paladins are one of the strongest classes in the game, perhaps the strongest. First up, if you're using the GWM feat - get rid of the -5/+10 damaqe mechanic - replace it with +1 Str. That would reduce his damage to more acceptable levels.

Next, the big thing that defines the paladin as opposed to a fighter is their Oath. It has to be meaningful and put restrictions on what the paladin does, it is part of the balancing of the class, which can and should reach into the social pillar. Unfortunately, the vengeance paladin oath is kinda lame... "no mercy" and "fight the greater evil" and "by any means necessary". In my view, taken to extremes, these tenets will eventually lead to a TPK, but... hey... the paladin can choose to break their oath instead. Not very satisfactory, but it's there.

I think the best approach as DM to fix the OP vengeance paladin is magic items. Give the other PCs more powerful magic items to rebalance the party. Give the vengeance paladin lower powered items, or items that do not directly affect combat.

The only real weakness of the paladin is ranged combat. Maybe throw more ranged combats in to help the other party members shine. Also, you probably need more combats per day to draw out the paladin's spell slot smites.

Best of luck

 

[OB1]

Yes Vengance Paladins are the best Solo Melee Characters available. As noted previously, increasing the number of monstesr, encounters, ranged, and flying opponents helps to counter this and allow the Paladin to shine when it's finally time to hit the BBEG.
If you only want to run two encounters a day, you can still slow down the Paladin by making the encounters multi part, where reinforcements or secondary creatures arrive just as the first set are dispatched.
To me, a Vengance Paladin should shine against a single enemy the same way an Evoker Wizard should against a hoard of minions.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Another thing, depending on your story, is that you are in Athas. It is a desert world with harsh conditions. Let the Ranger shine by putting the party out in the wilderness, either on a trip that saps their supplies or with few supplies to begin with. Even if the Paladin can go days without food and water and dealing with the heat with stupid high con saves, I bet the rest of the party can't and it will allow the ranger to do what they are good at. Ranger's (especially archer hunters in my opinion) truly shine against large groups of enemies in combat. In fact, between him and the monk/warlock you probably have some great aoe potential. Swarm them, and let those players use those abilities.

For the rogue, he needs to do what rogues do. Be sneaky and slippery and hit an allies target almost as hard as the paladin does (paladin smite, probably around 4d8+mod, rogue sneak attack probably around 5d6+mod or bigger).

I would not take anything away from the paladin without getting some consent or acknowledgement from them. Otherwise they may feel they are being punished for doing nothing wrong and that won't be good for the group overall. Besides, if you feel the problem is he isn't earning his power, he has an oath to the king, give him some role-playing issues that high saves might not get him out of. Remember, even a 30 on a persuasion roll won't necessarily mean anything. Try convincing a devout cleric to forsake their god cause you say so, no amount of persuasion is going to make that happen. Changing the mind of a power mad sorcerer-king...

 

[77IM]

Start giving out more magic items, and make it obvious that they are for the other party members (e.g. make them things that are useless to the paladin). Be sure to give the paladin some items too, but make it things that aren't that useful in combat, like a wand of cure light wounds.