The Real problem with 3e D&D

[Treebore]

I sometimes think that the precident established with the "raising Intellegence Stat through magic" should be applied to a lot more abilities. Those abilities should be re-written to "get to the point". For example:

Rage? A barbarian gets a +2 rage bonus to hit and attack rolls. 2 temporary hp/hd. This effect lasts for X amount of turns.

Cat's Grace? The target gets a +2 enchantment bonus on their initiative checks, balance and tumble skills for X amount of turns.

Bull's Strength? Traget gets a +2 enchantment bonus to hit and attack rolls.

and so forth. Basically take whatever the spell/ability is going to be "really" used for 99% of the time, and just write it like that. Just so long as we could bypass alterting base stats, I would be happy and it would eliminate a lot of book keeping.

Thats a good idea.

 

[RedFox]

Thats a good idea.

Too bad that Bull's Strength won't actually let you lift a heavier load or anything now. Or that Cat's Grace won't allow you to Move Silently better.

 

[Pants]

I can get the C&C books (PHB & MT) for $40. Why would I spend $90+$30(MMIV)+$30(MMV)=$150
just to get less prep time?

Then you should just continue playing C&C.

Why is this such a big point of contention? Play the games you like, why spend the time bitching about games that aren't your cup-o-tea?

 

[Delta]

The best solution I can think of is to come up with effective computer campaign management software. I know there's a few packages out there, and I've tried a few - but none of them strike me as particularly effective.

I do think that 3rd Ed. D&D is too complex (especially for the DM). I think that the D&D producers are going to have to make a key decision in the future -- is it a pen-and-paper game, or is it a computer game? If the former, they'll need to simplify options; if the latter they can expand as they see fit. But honestly I think if D&D becomes a computer-managed-pen-and-paper game, the audience willing to learn that will be miniscule.

 

[Crothian]

Well, this is a sad state of affairs then, which is why I was extremely disappointed to hear that 4.0 was a ways off. Enthusiastic beginners, so sad to see the look on their faces when they realize what they are in for? That's exactly right, I agree. And it's a shame. And the need for initiative charts and index cards and tokens and so on, not to mention that we are even at a point in the long history of D&D that we wish for computer programs to handle the complexity of in-game calculations? My gods, where has the fun gone??

For some people that is fun. And for others like myself we don't have need for any of that extra stuff. My point above was if this all get to be too much then fuind something that works for you, D&D is not for everyone.

 

[EvilDwarf]

For some people that is fun. And for others like myself we don't have need for any of that extra stuff. My point above was if this all get to be too much then fuind something that works for you, D&D is not for everyone.

Well, speaking only for myself, I find the "love or leave it" attitude unproductive and a little insulting. I don't want to leave it. I want it to be better. And so, I log on and have a discussion with other players, looking for cool ideas and to learn the neat ways they handle their games.

I've been playing D&D since the white box set, so it's a little weird to hear someone say to me that D&D might not be for me. It's been for me since about 1974. And, I'm extremly lucky enough to still have in my group friends who began playing with me way back then. And, to be honest, there's really no place else to go. With all it's complexities, etc., it's still D&D, and nothing else is.

I've also brought the laptop into the game, running sessions using DM's Familiar. It's been a huge help. But, when a P&P game reaches the point where you need trackers, multiple character sheets, spreadsheets, and computers to manage the game, I think that's a hint that something might be up. YMMV, of course, and I respect that. I'm sure there are some number crunchers or war gamers who love that stuff. But I'm in the camp with the OP--I think the game's beginning to collapse under its own weight.

What we're trying to do is figure out ways to manage it--not leave it. As the Dire Straits would (sort of) say, "I WANT MY D N D..."

(sorry for bursting into song there )

 

[Treebore]

Too bad that Bull's Strength won't actually let you lift a heavier load or anything now. Or that Cat's Grace won't allow you to Move Silently better.

I'm pretty sure he left those out because he was just doing an off the top of his head set of examples. Not fully fleshed out alternative rules.

 

[Reynard]

...when a P&P game reaches the point where you need trackers, multiple character sheets, spreadsheets, and computers to manage the game, I think that's a hint that something might be up.

But you don't. Running D&D can be overwhelming when a) the DM isn't organized, b) the players don't know what their characters can do, c) the DM chooses extremely complex scenarios, and/or d) people at the table stop communicating with one another.

Let's say you run a game for a 15th level party. First, before anything else happens, the players have to know what their high level, versatile characters can do. For the barbrian, it isn't so tough. For the cleric/sorcerer/theurge, it can be. But the player who isn't good with rules and memorization should, quite frankly, not be playing a complex character.

Now, the DM has to come up with a scenario. Let's say he decides on an assasination plot the PCs must uncover and then stop. He could write up a group of 6 12th level NPC assassins, of of different classes, and cause himself no end of trouble. or, he could engineer the scenario in such a way as a collection of demons/devil, undead, golems or whatever are the enemies -- he maintains a diverse assortment of baddies, but saves him a whole heap of unnecessary work.

Then it comes time to prep. Since he doesn't have to prep the bad guys, as he took them right out of the MM, he can spend that time actually looking at what the assassins are capable of and making notes of how their abilities interact and synergize and what their tactics are likley to be (with an eye toward being able to adjust on the fly, of course). Witha sheet in hand showing what each of the bad guys' normal versus buffed combat data is, he's ready to go. A couple note cards, tokens or dice at the table will take care of durations, etc...

Once that fight begins, it is time to communicate. The Dm communicates whats going on. The players communicate what they're doing. And between the two, if confusion or misunderstanding arise, everyone communicates to resolve it. Experienced people help the less experienced, everyone trusts and talks to one another, and fun is had by all.

And the computer never figured into it.

 

[Crothian]

Well, speaking only for myself, I find the "love or leave it" attitude unproductive and a little insulting. I don't want to leave it. I want it to be better. And so, I log on and have a discussion with other players, looking for cool ideas and to learn the neat ways they handle their games.

My original post was use as much as you like and can handle. And it's not love it or leave it. It is find a way that you can make it fun for you but understand that that may not actually be possible. A lot of people really force a round peg in a square hole and complain that it won't fit. And just because I reply to your post don't mean I'm telling you EvilDwarf to quit the game. It is a discussions with many posters and some advice is general and not to specific users.

I've been playing D&D since the white box set, so it's a little weird to hear someone say to me that D&D might not be for me. It's been for me since about 1974. And, I'm extremly lucky enough to still have in my group friends who began playing with me way back then. And, to be honest, there's really no place else to go. With all it's complexities, etc., it's still D&D, and nothing else is.

There is other editions of D&D or just play the current game in moderation and not use whatever might be causing your issues.

I'm sure there are some number crunchers or war gamers who love that stuff. But I'm in the camp with the OP--I think the game's beginning to collapse under its own weight.

I'm sure there are number crunchers and war gamers out that that love it too. I'm not one of them though. I found that I love a story oriented game so I have players that like that too. We don't get bogged down in the mechanics because none of use want to. That is my solution and it has worked for me. We use the books we like and can handle and ignore the stuff we don't like and is too much for us. That is my middle ground between "love it or leave."

 

[Imaro]

Then you should just continue playing C&C.

Why is this such a big point of contention? Play the games you like, why spend the time bitching about games that aren't your cup-o-tea?

First off, I do play C&C, but C&C wasn't available at the same time as D&D 3.0 or even 3.5 was originally released, so I have spent a fair bit of money on WotC's products. I believe this entitles me to discuss, what I like and don't like, about the things I have bought as much as I want, since it was my money I spent.

I could easily turn this around and say, if D&D is perfect for you, why are you posting on a thread about its problems?