The Real problem with 3e D&D

[Imaro]

But you don't. Running D&D can be overwhelming when a) the DM isn't organized, b) the players don't know what their characters can do, c) the DM chooses extremely complex scenarios, and/or d) people at the table stop communicating with one another.

Let's say you run a game for a 15th level party. First, before anything else happens, the players have to know what their high level, versatile characters can do. For the barbrian, it isn't so tough. For the cleric/sorcerer/theurge, it can be. But the player who isn't good with rules and memorization should, quite frankly, not be playing a complex character.

Now, the DM has to come up with a scenario. Let's say he decides on an assasination plot the PCs must uncover and then stop. He could write up a group of 6 12th level NPC assassins, of of different classes, and cause himself no end of trouble. or, he could engineer the scenario in such a way as a collection of demons/devil, undead, golems or whatever are the enemies -- he maintains a diverse assortment of baddies, but saves him a whole heap of unnecessary work.

Then it comes time to prep. Since he doesn't have to prep the bad guys, as he took them right out of the MM, he can spend that time actually looking at what the assassins are capable of and making notes of how their abilities interact and synergize and what their tactics are likley to be (with an eye toward being able to adjust on the fly, of course). Witha sheet in hand showing what each of the bad guys' normal versus buffed combat data is, he's ready to go. A couple note cards, tokens or dice at the table will take care of durations, etc...

Once that fight begins, it is time to communicate. The Dm communicates whats going on. The players communicate what they're doing. And between the two, if confusion or misunderstanding arise, everyone communicates to resolve it. Experienced people help the less experienced, everyone trusts and talks to one another, and fun is had by all.

And the computer never figured into it.

(IMHO) this post still glosses over one of the main sources of complexity in the game. DM's and players have a staggering number of buffs, bonuses, conditions, spell effets, magic item effects etc. to keep track of(and it only increases as level goes up). Even using a monster or NPC straight from the book you still have to remember or check what it's feats, special qualities, spells etc. do and then monitor their effects during play. Each of the players likewise has to keep track of these things for their character, though this is on a lesser scale than a DM. I'm not getting how there's no prep-time involved even with taking monsters and NPC's from the books.

D&D can be complex when a.) numerous spellcasting characters are involved(both PC and NPC) b.)DM's don't remember exactly what feat A, or Special Quality B, or Magic Item C, or Spell D, does for each of the monsters and NPC's they are playing(and IMHO this is totally understandable). c.) When using any overly convulted rule that is not used often(grappling).

 

[Hussar]

D&D can be complex when a.) numerous spellcasting characters are involved(both PC and NPC) b.)DM's don't remember exactly what feat A, or Special Quality B, or Magic Item C, or Spell D, does for each of the monsters and NPC's they are playing(and IMHO this is totally understandable). c.) When using any overly convulted rule that is not used often(grappling).

A) I agree with this. When you have multiple casters blasting away, it can be very complicated, particularly after about 10th level. Under that, it's usually not a big deal. Then again, prep does figure in here. Cut and paste your spells and print them out onto index cards. As a DM, I use the SRD about 99% of the time because you can do most jobs with just that. So, take the time to prep the spells beforehand instead of just writing the spell titles out.

On a side note, because I play on a Virtual Tabletop (OpenRPG) this becomes VASTLY easier. I simply put the pertinent information into a chat node and send it when the spell is cast. The initiative tracker tells me when the spell runs out. This isn't an issue for me, but, I can see how it could be in a tabletop game.

B) Again agree. This happens. And, IME, most players are either fairly understanding or pretty quick to point out the mistake and give the answer. A possible fix here is to go the same route as many modules and choose elements that aren't as complicated. Improved Toughness sees use in a lot of Dungeon adventures for a reason. Pick stuff that gives a fixed benefit and don't try getting too cute. Your encounter probably only has to last one fight, so, don't spend a bazillion hours tweaking every last option.

C) Possibly agree, but disagree with the example. Maybe it's because I've run SO much combat over the past two years but my group has zero problems with grappling. They know what their grapple mods are, and it's written on their character sheets. Two die rolls and we move on. But, I do see what you are saying. When corner case rules come up, it can be a pain, particularly if the DM is rather shaky on the rules in the first place.

 

[Reynard]

( I'm not getting how there's no prep-time involved even with taking monsters and NPC's from the books.

I didn't say there was no prep time. What I said is you can instead use your prep time to familiarize yourself with the abilities of your chosen baddies and plan their use of those abilities in a tactical situation -- which cuts down on the perceived complexity of running the game. If you know what your NPCs can do, and have cheat sheets and other simple aids, you won't run into the "So many Buffs! I am so lost!" problem.

As far as PCs go: the burden is on the players to play their characters. They ned to know what their characters can do, whether that's how Power Attack works or what Evards Black Tentacles does. My greatest pet peeve at the table is the player who has to constantly flip open the book to look up a class feature, feat or spell -- especially if he has been playing the character (or similar ones) for a long time. I understand that not everyone has a steel-trap memory, but for the sake of WeeJas, make a photcopy and buy a highlighter.

 

[Imaro]

A) I agree with this. When you have multiple casters blasting away, it can be very complicated, particularly after about 10th level. Under that, it's usually not a big deal. Then again, prep does figure in here. Cut and paste your spells and print them out onto index cards. As a DM, I use the SRD about 99% of the time because you can do most jobs with just that. So, take the time to prep the spells beforehand instead of just writing the spell titles out.

On a side note, because I play on a Virtual Tabletop (OpenRPG) this becomes VASTLY easier. I simply put the pertinent information into a chat node and send it when the spell is cast. The initiative tracker tells me when the spell runs out. This isn't an issue for me, but, I can see how it could be in a tabletop game.

B) Again agree. This happens. And, IME, most players are either fairly understanding or pretty quick to point out the mistake and give the answer. A possible fix here is to go the same route as many modules and choose elements that aren't as complicated. Improved Toughness sees use in a lot of Dungeon adventures for a reason. Pick stuff that gives a fixed benefit and don't try getting too cute. Your encounter probably only has to last one fight, so, don't spend a bazillion hours tweaking every last option.

C) Possibly agree, but disagree with the example. Maybe it's because I've run SO much combat over the past two years but my group has zero problems with grappling. They know what their grapple mods are, and it's written on their character sheets. Two die rolls and we move on. But, I do see what you are saying. When corner case rules come up, it can be a pain, particularly if the DM is rather shaky on the rules in the first place.

A) It's not just the blasting though, buff spells add a level of complexity to everything at the table, especially when different types are used liberally. Does it or doesn't it stack, seperate durations for different ones, changing of abilities or other "traits", etc. The computer thing is cool but I really prefer not to use a computer at the table, as my games are sometimes played in places where that would be inconvenient.

B) Good suggestion.

C) You know what, after thiinking about this more corner cases usually end up going one of two ways...either everyone learns the rules and they are used or PC and DM alike tend to just ignore them. I guess I fall into the latter camp, with houseruling if it comes up.

 

[Reynard]

C) You know what, after thiinking about this more corner cases usually end up going one of two ways...either everyone learns the rules and they are used or PC and DM alike tend to just ignore them. I guess I fall into the latter camp, with houseruling if it comes up.

Tis isn't problematic if you have a standard group with very little change in composition, but ignoring and /or houseruling the basics can create problems if you run at cons, have new people join the group, or otherwise play with people you aren't accustomed to.

 

[Laman Stahros]

There is no reason you couldn't add my C&C house rule to a 3E game. Everyone can attempt feats, but it requires a roll to pull it off. 3E characters who have selected a feat don't have any chance of failure.

Of course this only works for feats that don't change or add to skills, only modifiers to combat/spell actions, and combat maneuvers would be "open" to everyone to try.

Plus this allows people (players and DM's) to try out feats before they commit to it by actually selecting it.

Plus it is balanced by the biggest balancing factor of all, everyone can do it. Or should I say make the attempt?

I think the same ways in which I choose the CL in C&C would work pretty well with determining DC's in 3E.

Action points in Unearthed Arcana allow this. As my players are beginning to figure out.

 

[Hussar]

A) It's not just the blasting though, buff spells add a level of complexity to everything at the table, especially when different types are used liberally. Does it or doesn't it stack, seperate durations for different ones, changing of abilities or other "traits", etc. The computer thing is cool but I really prefer not to use a computer at the table, as my games are sometimes played in places where that would be inconvenient.

That's something I agree with. Buffing is a big barrel o' complexity that isn't needed. The biggest culprit, IMO, is stat buffs. They just affect far too much. Buffs should become straight number bonuses.

Actually, thinking about it, I would love to see buffing go the same route as Summon Monster spells. Buff 1 does a bit. Buff 2 does a bit more or does Buff 1 to a group. Buff 3 does a bit more or does Buff 2 to a few or Buff 1 to a lot. That sort of thing. Strip out all the buff spells and replace them with 9 standard spells.

Would make me a very happy DM.

 

[Reynard]

That's something I agree with. Buffing is a big barrel o' complexity that isn't needed. The biggest culprit, IMO, is stat buffs. They just affect far too much. Buffs should become straight number bonuses.

Stat buffs are easy. The key is not trying to remember who has what and how long it last. Write it down. Use a token or die.

Actually, thinking about it, I would love to see buffing go the same route as Summon Monster spells. Buff 1 does a bit. Buff 2 does a bit more or does Buff 1 to a group. Buff 3 does a bit more or does Buff 2 to a few or Buff 1 to a lot. That sort of thing. Strip out all the buff spells and replace them with 9 standard spells.

I like this idea. I think some standardization in spells overall would be a good thing. Consistent patterns make things easier to recall and use.

 

[Imaro]

I didn't say there was no prep time. What I said is you can instead use your prep time to familiarize yourself with the abilities of your chosen baddies and plan their use of those abilities in a tactical situation -- which cuts down on the perceived complexity of running the game. If you know what your NPCs can do, and have cheat sheets and other simple aids, you won't run into the "So many Buffs! I am so lost!" problem.

And this is where we differ. I want to use my prep time to create cool adventures, my own homebrew world, custom PrC's etc. If a GAME is to the point where it requires this amount of prep just for rules issues, then it's probably not my cup of tea. Sorry I don't have the amount of time I did as a teen.

On another note, how do you prep tactics? PC's come up with some crazy stuff so am I suppose to try to plan for everything?

As far as PCs go: the burden is on the players to play their characters. They ned to know what their characters can do, whether that's how Power Attack works or what Evards Black Tentacles does. My greatest pet peeve at the table is the player who has to constantly flip open the book to look up a class feature, feat or spell -- especially if he has been playing the character (or similar ones) for a long time. I understand that not everyone has a steel-trap memory, but for the sake of WeeJas, make a photcopy and buy a highlighter.

That's cool but what about players that are new to the game? It's not just knowing what an ability or spell can do( and I really don't see how you could have every spell memorized), but picking the right one and applying it to the situation in the way that is most optimal. As the choices grow this takes longer and longer.

"make a photocopy and buy a highlighter" some people just want to play a game and have fun.

 

[Hussar]

On another note, how do you prep tactics? PC's come up with some crazy stuff so am I suppose to try to plan for everything?

Y'know, people mention this all the time, but, is it really true. IME, I can predict what the players are going to do in most situations. At least broadly. I may not know their exact spells and whatnot, but, that's not important. I know that they are likely going to come from X direction and probably react a particular way.

Heck, look at Dungeon or pretty much any module these days. Almost all of them now include a tactics section in every encounter. If it was impossible to come up with tactics beforehand, wouldn't people be complaining about this more?

That's cool but what about players that are new to the game? It's not just knowing what an ability or spell can do( and I really don't see how you could have every spell memorized), but picking the right one and applying it to the situation in the way that is most optimal. As the choices grow this takes longer and longer.

Well, that comes with experience. I wouldn't expect a person new to chess to make an optimal move every time, so I certainly don't expect it from new players. The problem I think here, is that you are assuming that if the players don't make the exact perfect choice every time, they are going to get hosed.

Game balance is nowhere near that precarious. Even a mediocre sorcerer is still going to contribute to the game. Maybe not as well as a perfectly created one, but, still, he's going to do all right. The classes are not THAT out of balance.