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The self-contained level

Frostmarrow

First Post
Traditionally when creating a character we roll ability scores and pick race and class. Then we pick skills, feats and powers. Lastly we buy rudimentary equipment.

What if a level, any level, is a self-contained unit, good enough to be a 1st level character? If so all we need to do is roll ability scores, pick race and lasty pick a self-contained level. When you level up you pick another self-contained level and the benefits stack.
A level (think of it as a box with contents) can be balanced in various way. A level that contains +1 BAT and d10 hp might not have any feats or skills at all. Another level might provide some skills but no BAT increase.

Some levels might require that you already have an ability from another level. But other than that you are free to pick a fighter level as your first and then a mage level as your second.

Examples:
Fighter Level
Proficiency with Martial Weapons
Weapon Focus Longsword (unlocks longsword special quality)
+d8 HP (few hp to balance the good ability above)
+1 BAT
+1 Reflex save

Mage Level
Proficiency with quarterstaff
+d4 HP
Spellcraft
Magic Missile
Mage Hand

Now there will be a hundred or more "Levels" to chose from and most of the time they stack. (My examples above are bit bit too vanilla. They really should be more interesting).
Each level should also have a suggested background text such as for the fighter level above:
"Trained by an uncle, swordschool, duelist, melee participant in joust."

Pros: Easy to get started but you still get to make an interesting decision. Easy to create the character you want. It might add some unexpected side-effects but such is life. Why do I, in real life, have Operate Heavy Machinery? It's not part of my build.

Cons: Easy to take advantage of and create an overpowered character if the levels aren't supremely well balanced. But hey, if you want absolute fairness even Chess is broken.

Key selling point: You can keep publishing Levels and customers will constantly have something to buy. (They have to turn a profit).

To me the character sheet is very important. You should copy information from rulebok or card on to a character sheet in pencil to make the character your own.
It's also important that the levels don't have names that suggests an occupation. Occupation is for the player to decide what the entire package of levels means to him.
 

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RSKennan

Explorer
I've been trying to work this out for my 3.5 offshoot, "Dragonfire". I was planning to do it more simply, where a level in mage gets +1 to "Arcane Casting", etc. 1/2 Arcane Casting is the maximum spell level you can cast (spells go to 10th level), and spells per day were based entirely on INT modifier using a table.

Edit: Changed wizard to Mage. I actually did use the word mage- the four core are the 2e groups of Warrior, Mage, Rogue, and Priest. In my game you choose two packages per level, which leaves the option open for Racial packages.
 
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Chess is not broken.

No, just the Queen is.

The challenge for "slef-contained levels" is: how do you balance the player who takes a level of everything with the player who takes only levels of the same thing, and make them more-or-less equally viable but not overly broken.

Who wants to take the 3rd level of Fighter in 3E, for example, when taking the 1st level of barbarian gets you so much more?
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
For a moment there I thought this thread was about sentient dungeon levels.

Chess is not broken.
Not all that much, but in a single match one player will always be the one who gets the first move, and the other gets to be the one who reacts. You need a slightly different strategy depending on which you are, and you need to be aware of the types of strategies the other side can do. For instance, white can often achieve the Scholar's mate against new players (checkmate in four), but there are times when Black can humiliate newbies with a Fool's Mate (checkmate in two).

It's also important that the levels don't have names that suggests an occupation. Occupation is for the player to decide what the entire package of levels means to him.
Hmm. Is your suggestion that the player would choose the path through the classes before starting the game, or that he would pick them up one by one as he game progressed?
 

AeroDm

First Post
No, just the Queen is.

The challenge for "slef-contained levels" is: how do you balance the player who takes a level of everything with the player who takes only levels of the same thing, and make them more-or-less equally viable but not overly broken.

Who wants to take the 3rd level of Fighter in 3E, for example, when taking the 1st level of barbarian gets you so much more?
I think that is part of the problem of 3e multiclassing. Included in Fighter 3 is the promise of Fighter 4 and the benefits it entails. You can think of this as the net present value of Fighter 3 is positive because of those future payouts. Perhaps no class shows this as clearly as the spell casting classes.

When 3e was just being advertised it was a really jarring moment when they revealed that all classes would stack with regards to experience. Coming from 2e, the idea that Fighter 10 might jump into Wizard 1 and he should have to earn experience as an 11th level character to hit 12th was really, really weird. A lot of people just announced that they would house rule it away. The truth of how powerful that Wiz1 level is to the Ftr10 is somewhere in the middle. It isn't quite worth a full level, but it is pretty good.

I think the OP's proposal would also fall somewhere in the middle. A lot of your level-boxes would be pretty powerful and stack together nicely. You'd start to encounter problems, though, at the fringes. What if someone takes 5 straight boxes without +1 attack? They have a ton of whistles and bells, but none of them ever get to make noise because they never hit. When your boxes contain inside them the core math of the system, you really put a lot of faith in players that they make good decisions. What I imagine you'll end up with is a lot of min-maxers doing really great and a bunch of new players doing really poorly.

We probably don't want to hand every new player to the game just enough rope to hang themselves, so we'd have to put a lot of rules and restrictions on which boxes could be taken when and where and so on. At that point, it is starting to sound a lot like classes again.
 



Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Hmm... if two sentient dungeon levels (or two dungeons) fought each other, what would they use? Is this like two ant colonies warring?

I know one that has a human dex-fighter, a monkey rogue, a djinn wizard, and a flying carpet. Oh and lava.

Another is filled with ninja constructs, an abberation, and monstrous humanoids.

Well back on topic.

My d20 homebrew uses self contained levels. Wizard levels don't even grant hit points or skill points, just spell slots and mana. Balance can get wonky as a person can get a high level spell slot by taking only spellcaster levels but a wizard 10 has only 4 HP where the same level fighter has ~100. It heavily encourages multiclassing.
 

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