D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

[Incenjucar]

Whether or not the barbarian scene above is RAW, it's certainly the idea. Each class should have an idea of that nature that is reflected, ideally, in the RAW for that class in the same manner.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I wish the Sorcery points could be used to cast a spell the sorcerer desnt have. Its some real edge case for it to make sense to trade a 7th level spell for a 3rd and a 1st.

Trade a 7th level spell for a 5th level Wall of Light to annihilate an army of shadows? Oh yeah.

 

[MoonSong]

In old school D&D, the Wizard (1e Magic-User or 2e Mage) did all of them. The Wizard was the "every kind of magic" class. It was literally the class used for concepts like "warlock", "sorcerer", "wizard", "witch", and so on. For example, some of the old school Githyanki Wizards were called "warlocks". If it was a magic concept at all, then the 1e "Magic-User" did it.

But in new school D&D, the Wizard has evolved and radiated into separate classes. Today, the Players Handbook "mages" include: Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Bard. Really Cleric and Druid are also mages in the sense of competent full casters.

It only claimed to be every kind of magic user. However, it was very bad at anything not a bookish spellcaster. Only by the middle of 2e it gained the ability to do some of the stuff, through the kits for shair and what eventually evolved into the warlock. 3.0 gave us the sorcerer which genuinely lets you do characters that never truly fit under the Mage. It even got ported back to 2e and could in theory be played in a first edition game. But I digress.
The Wizard/Mage/Magic User is a key part of D&D, very iconic, but totally utterly inflexible and lacking in thematic variability.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I wish the Sorcery points could be used to cast a spell the sorcerer desnt have. Its some real edge case for it to make sense to trade a 7th level spell for a 3rd and a 1st.

Trade a 7th level spell for a 5th level Wall of Light to annihilate an army of shadows? Oh yeah.

So you're saying you want a better, cheaper, Arcane Apotheosis, at a lower level?

 

[Minigiant]

I wish the Sorcery points could be used to cast a spell the sorcerer desnt have. Its some real edge case for it to make sense to trade a 7th level spell for a 3rd and a 1st.

Trade a 7th level spell for a 5th level Wall of Light to annihilate an army of shadows? Oh yeah.

I've always felt that the Sorcerer should not have spells known but get something like 3e domains. Spheres maybe.

A sorcerer starts with 2 spheres and gains more domains over time.
A red draconic sorcerer might pick Fire and Strength.
A black draconic sorcerer might pick Water and Trickery.
A wild mage sorcerer might pick Chaos and Luck.
A shadow sorcerer might pick Death and Trickery.
A Harry Potter sorcerer would pick Knowledge and Magic.

Then the sorcerer as the level up might be able to once per long rest cast a spell from any Sphere. And once per long rest cast any Arcane spell. But these spells would have to be cast with Sorcery points.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I think the NEXT playlets Sorcerer would have been far more interesting.

This tbh

The dndnext sorcerer was so unique that it could be added as its own class.

 

[kigmatzomat]

So you're saying you want a better, cheaper, Arcane Apotheosis, at a lower level?

Would i convert part of an 18th level feature, which 99.8% of sorcerer players won't get to use, to be a Sorcery Point feature, which is limited to 5th level spells and has a conversion penalty but is available sooner? Yes, yes I would.

1dd arcane apotheosis is a) bonus 9th level spell known- Wish, b) can't lose Wish even if you wish away all the shrimp and c) can cast any lower level spell using the lower level spell slot 1/day. Mine would be a lower powered, more costly version of sub-feature c).

Sorcerers in 3.xe had 150% the spell slots per day as wizards. There was a slight progression lag but aside from 3rd level where it hurt the most, the sorcerer had a narrowly focused ability to throw many, many spells.

That was taken away whe. 5e/1DD gave all casters the same number of slots. Sure, sorcerers can convert their Sorcery points to spells, but only to 5th level while wizards get Arcane Recovery which goes up to 6th level slots. Plus wizards get Signature spell for two bonus 3rd level spell slots which means wizards actually get more spell slots than sorcerers.

So yes, I would add another use for Sorcery points that gives some unique flavor to the class. It could even be tied to the subclass. (I.e. Divine soul could cast Divine spells, Dragon Disciples cast draconic/element spells, etc)

 

[Undrave]

I think the sorcerer should have a feature where they can lose control of their powers when taking damage, something like “you make a concentration check (separate from normal concentration) and if you fail you do X” based on subclass, with some even being beneficial (Divine Soul Sorcerer could grant temp HP to others when their powers goes wild) while other just inflict damage (Storm Soul HAS to hit someone within 15 ft with lightning!). Maybe you don’t even need a concetration check, it just happens. And it would push the Sorcerer to risk getting closer to the action (and probably have features to help with that). They should also have unique cantrips-like power granted by each subclass so we don’t have to worry if there’s a thematic one available (lightning themed guys don’t have to rely on Shocking Grasp, for exemple).

Also: it should be the easiest class to multi class.

Agreed on all points. But I'd say that "the ability to have unlimited spells known, and to invent new spells" are perfect as the subclass gimmicks for a sorcerer subclass.

I'd also say that "the ability to have unlimited spells known" actively dilutes most of the wizard subclasses, like the Illusionist and the necromancer. And that's why I want them demoted to a subclass; their class being a class actively undermines the theme of almost all their subclasses. Not that it will ever happen.

I still say the base Wizard should only learn 1 spell per level, and the subclass adding to those known spells using specific restrictions. Instead of getting 2 random spell every level you’d HAVE to gain a spell from your specialty before you gain your random choice. It would create more distinct Wizards.

Because it's no longer 2007. The Barbarian is the primally empowered class, almost a martial mirror to the sorcerer. That person who got hit by the lightning at the heart of the century storm? If empowers them magically they are a sorcerer, if they channel its power into their body they are a barbarian. One of the many many improvements 4e made to the lore was to enable barbarians and sorcerers to strike out on their own rather than just be there.

The addition of Primal Spirits to the Barbarian’s lore was probably the best thing to happen to the class. If 4e hadn’t added it to its story, it probably would have taken up the Champion’s ‘simple subclass’ role in 5e and not be its own thing.

It is now a problem if the Wizard class does every kind of magic. Some of the "Magic-User" tradition should split away to inform and flavor the other full caster classes.

See my response to Neonchameleon above.

(and they've homogenised the warlock in the playtest)

Augh, don’t remind me.

 

[Yaarel]

I still say the base Wizard should only learn 1 spell per level, and the subclass adding to those known spells using specific restrictions. Instead of getting 2 random spell every level you’d HAVE to gain a spell from your specialty before you gain your random choice. It would create more distinct Wizards.

I am fine with the Wizard only gaining one free spell per level after level 1. I agree the spell while leveling should come from the Wizard subclass, for the sake of thematic focus.

Yes, of course, there are many spells that I want my Wizard character to have handy. But I am ok with adventuring to acquire these spells (and rituals) as treasure.

I love the 5e Wizard and the 5e Bard. These are my two go-to classes as player.

I hope the core Wizard subclasses are: Evoker, Illusionist, Transmuter, and Bladesinger.

• Evoker is the magic of Air-Fire-Water (including lightning-thunder, fire-radiant-darkness, and cold)
• Transmuter is the magic of Earth-Plant-Animal (where Earth is weapon damage types, plus primordial formative matter as acid)
• Illusionist is the magic of quasi-real objects made out of force (including Arcane Armor, Magic Missile, Fly, Tiny Hut)
• Bladesinger is the fullcaster gish, and perhaps merging with Warmage.

Enchanter now belongs to Bard and Warlock.
Divinator (space-time, including precognition and teleportation) belongs to Bard and Cleric.
Necromancer (Undead, Fiend, Aberration) belongs to Warlock and Cleric.

Conjuror (planar travel) belongs to Cleric and Warlock.

I am uncertain how the Sorcerer spell list should play out, but I know it should relate to their "planar affinity" and which plane they incarnate.

 

[Peter BOSCO'S]

To me at least, the difference between "I made a deal with an entity from Beyond." [Warlock] and "My ancestor made a deal with an entity from Beyond, and now it runs in the family." [Sorcerer] is the conceptual difference between two sub-classes, not the conceptual difference between two different classes. Sorcerer and Warlock should be combined. Leave Wizard as it is.