D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

[Vaalingrade]

I literally quoted Crawford explaining that the wizard's key identity is a their large spell list no one else has in 130. When those "things" are the wizard's spell list exclusives that sorcerers feel entitled to in order to avoid developing "things"that fit the sorcerer's key identity it's the expectation of those "things"itself that is unreasonable.

Or the wizard just has super poor class identity due to the designers having had their hands tied by its fanbase for the past twenty years.

 

[James Gasik]

I shouldn't exist! Argh!

You're a Sorcerer? For some reason I thought you were psionic.

 

[James Gasik]

Or the wizard just has super poor class identity due to the designers having had their hands tied by its fanbase for the past twenty years.

I mean...it's not alone in having a bad class identity.

 

[Yaarel]

The Wizard can become more flavorful if, the spells that come automatically while leveling, must relate to a chosen theme. An Illusionist would only figure out for oneself how to cast Illusion spells, and only gain Illusion spells while leveling.

The Illusionist Wizard would still be able to use other spells, like Fireball, acquired from elsewhere while adventuring.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The Wizard can become more flavorful if, the spells that come automatically while leveling, must relate to a chosen theme.

The Wizard would still be able to use other spells acquired from elsewhere.

Personally, I think any class which is solely defined by "I cast even more spells" is going to fall flat for mechanics supporting theme. "Spells" is just too generic a specialty. It's like specializing in "winning" or "power."

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean...it's not alone in having a bad class identity.

What, you think 'weapon guy who only gets things from subclasses', 'archer-pet owner-naturalist-tracker-exclusively magical for some reason ourdoorsman', and 'literally every skilled person is stealthy and attacks with precision' aren't perfectly good class identities?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I would argue none of those characters with the possible exception of Aragorn are above level 10.

I mean yeah I agree there. It was more of a pushback against people arguing that martials should be magical even at low level. In tiers 3 and 4, you kind of have to be supernatural, as you're literally fighting gods in some cases. Though even there you can make things 'seem' less supernatural by treating a character like Captain America. He's above what a human can do, but in a very mundane feeling way.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I mean yeah I agree there. It was more of a pushback against people arguing that martials should be magical even at low level. In tiers 3 and 4, you kind of have to be supernatural, as you're literally fighting gods in some cases. Though even there you can make things 'seem' less supernatural by treating a character like Captain America. He's above what a human can do, but in a very mundane feeling way.

That would be precisely what I classify as the transmundane. It is beyond what is possible in our reality. It is not beyond what is possible in a fantastical reality. Spellcasting, godly miracles, the primal power of nature-spirits, etc., these things are the well-understood but still supernatural elements of these characters' world. The stuff a Fighter does can ascend beyond the ordinary, and yet not into the outright supernatural. That grey-area between definitely, unequivocally pedestrian and definitely, unequivocally magical.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I mean yeah I agree there. It was more of a pushback against people arguing that martials should be magical even at low level. In tiers 3 and 4, you kind of have to be supernatural, as you're literally fighting gods in some cases. Though even there you can make things 'seem' less supernatural by treating a character like Captain America. He's above what a human can do, but in a very mundane feeling way.

like yeah, if you ignore thor's lightning near the latter part of this fight (and that thor's a god and hulk's genetically modified, i'm aware that doesn't help the arguement that martials don't need to be supernatural to do this but they're not really doing anything supernatural, weapon attacks, grapples, leaping, punches and throws, and maybe in a DnD world this is just what regular people can achieve) this is the sort of thing that feels like what two high level martials going against each other should feel like, you totally believe either of these two could go toe-to-toe with a dragon and come out on top(not really too different to when hulk takes on one of those skyscraper chitauri worm things in the first avengers, he plants himself against something 100 times his size and it crumples against him), and it doesn't feel like either of them would've relied on any supernatural or magical abilities to do it, just strength, skill and steel.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

like yeah, if you ignore thor's lightning near the latter part of this fight (and that thor's a god and hulk's genetically modified, i'm aware that doesn't help the arguement that martials don't need to be supernatural to do this but in DnD maybe this is just what regular people can achieve) this is the sort of thing that feels like what two high level martials going against each other should feel like, you totally believe either of these two could go toe-to-toe with a dragon and come out on top(not really too different to when hulk takes on one of those skyscraper chitauri worm things in the first avengers, he plants himself against something 100 times his size and it crumples against him), and it doesn't feel like either of them would've relied on any supernatural or magical abilities to do it, just strength, skill and steel.

Yeah Thor and Hulk are basically what I picture as level 20 martials.

It's also the reason I prefer playing at levels 1-10. Because I enjoy a more grounded experience.