D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

[Flights of Fancy]

But wizards aren't actually wizards until they've put in the work. At level 0 they aren't a wizard, at level 1 they are. Just because they got there by hard work changes nothing at any second during play.

I have no idea what you even talk about now. No level 0. No gift for wizards. Hard work to become the class and cast spells as they do.

Unless your game says wizards have a gift which makes them able to learn magic like Harry Potter, they cannot be subclass of sorcerer because sorcerers do have a gift - blood, event, and such. This is not how wizards work in DnD. You can run it that way but not the normal rule.

Option 2 makes wizard as subclass of sorcerer nonsense otherwise.

Why you tak about changing things in play I have no idea.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

In order to emphasize the Sorcerer class, I feel some are misrepresenting the Wizard class.

Yes. Wizards do not come with innate magic. They apprentice and study for years to learn magic. This is why it is intelligence for wizards.

I strongly prefer innate magic. A Wizard has personal magical spark that is innate, that the scholarly approach develops

Such a preferrence is option 1. Which is okay then if you think wizard should be a subclass of soerccer.

 

[tetrasodium]

how are you getting these takes from my posts? i am and have always been talking entirely about the narrative justifications of where their power is originating from, ie: that the fighter and rogue have exceptional skill and training allowed to reach extraordinary levels by the natural magics that exist in all things to justify their capabilities, like the cleric and paladin can thank divine magic or the wizard, sorcerer, bard and warlock use arcane magic, nothing more than that point, nothing less

I'm not the only one who's disagreed with you & others pushing for a class that doesn't fit the game in ways that invite obvious problems. Either you are bad at expressing you are applying SEP to problems it needs to face, given 190 & 195.....

 

[Yaarel]

Yes. Wizards do not come with innate magic. They apprentice and study for years to learn magic. This is why it is intelligence for wizards.

Such a preferrence is option 1. Which is okay then if you think wizard should be a subclass of soerccer.

In D&D, the Human species is magical − innately capable of magic.

Psionic has always been an example of innate Human magic, in every edition since the origins of the game.

Martial has always been defacto magic, especially as dependence on magic items decreases each edition.

"Ki" is also, explicitly, an innate Human source of magic.


In 5e, the "soul" officially exists. It is never defined but is frequently mentioned.

The references to the "soul" can systematize as follows:
• There are levels of a soul.
• Part of the soul is ki, the bodily aura of lifeforce corresponding to the Material Plane.
• Part of the soul is the spirit, the ghostly influence corresponding to the Ethereal Plane.
• Part of the soul is the mind, the consciousness corresponding to the Astral Plane.

Each Human soul is a microcosm of the multiverse − and a personal source of innate magic.

All Humans utilize this innate magic when performing magic.


What makes a Sorcerer bloodline distinct is a NONHUMAN source of magic.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I have no idea what you even talk about now. No level 0. No gift for wizards. Hard work to become the class and cast spells as they do.

In other words they have a mix of luck, talent, hard work, and opportunity which lets them cast magic. Which is exactly what sorcerers have. Sorcerers put in hard work or they wouldn't level up.

Wizards are all lucky or they wouldn't have mentors or spell books to give them access to spells. You are inventing a distinction without a meaningful difference, especially with some sorcerer origins.

Unless your game says wizards have a gift which makes them able to learn magic like Harry Potter, they cannot be subclass of sorcerer because sorcerers do have a gift - blood, event, and such. This is not how wizards work in DnD. You can run it that way but not the normal rule.

There is basically no difference between how sorcerers work and how wizards work in D&D. You can't cast either of their spells without being a member of an appropriate class, and it takes exactly as much work to multiclass into one as the other. Learning to cast your first spell from a book is your event as a wizard, just as whatever you did for your event as a sorcerer.

You are literally inventing rules here to object to a proposed rule change.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

In D&D, the Human species is magical − innately capable of magic.

Is magical =/= as capable of spellcasting

Sorcerers are the only one with the other side is true.

Psionic has always been an example of innate Human magic, in every edition since the origins of the game.

Not always. 5E has chosen to treat it this way. Still, it is not innate Human magic. Not everyone can use psionics.

Anyone can become a wizard by study, apprenticeship, and stuff.

Martial has always been defacto magic, especially as dependence on magic items decreases each edition.

Martial is not magic either. Some use magic, but that is not the same.

"Ki" is also, explicitly, an innate Human source of magic.

Not magic. Is not stoped by antimagic area.

In 5e, the "soul" officially exists. It is never defined but is frequently mentioned.

The references to the "soul" can systematize as follows:
• There are levels of a soul.
• Part of the soul is ki, the bodily aura of lifeforce corresponding to the Material Plane.
• Part of the soul is the spirit, the ghostly influence corresponding to the Ethereal Plane.
• Part of the soul is the mind, the consciousness corresponding to the Astral Plane.

Each Human soul is a microcosm of the multiverse − and a personal source of innate magic.

Soul is not magic either.

All Humans utilize this innate magic when performing magic.

No, they uses power granted by gods, patrons, nature, spell formulas to perform magic.

What makes a Sorcerer bloodline distinct is a NONHUMAN source of magic.

For sorcerer it is whatever magic, not just nonhuman. Humans are not inately magic.

 

[Yaarel]

Is magical =/= as capable of spellcasting

Sorcerers are the only one with the other side is true.


Not always. 5E has chosen to treat it this way. Still, it is not innate Human magic. Not everyone can use psionics.

Anyone can become a wizard by study, apprenticeship, and stuff.


Martial is not magic either. Some use magic, but that is not the same.


Not magic. Is not stoped by antimagic area.


Soul is not magic either.


No, they uses power granted by gods, patrons, nature, spell formulas to perform magic.


For sorcerer it is whatever magic, not just nonhuman. Humans are not inately magic.

3e, 4e, and 5e define Psionic as "magic".

5e Psionic officially casts "innate" "spells".

Even AD&D Psionic is defacto magic, and refer to various "spells".

The 4e Martial power source is explicitly "magic". The 5e Martial is defacto magic. 3e Fighter does impossible things − defacto magic.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

In other words they have a mix of luck, talent, hard work, and opportunity which lets them cast magic. Which is exactly what sorcerers have. Sorcerers put in hard work or they wouldn't level up.

Nothing to do with leveling up. Sorcerers have a bloodline or event or something lets them harness their gift.

Wizards are all lucky or they wouldn't have mentors or spell books to give them access to spells. You are inventing a distinction without a meaningful difference, especially with some sorcerer origins.

Luck is still not a gift. Study and apprenticeship is how wizards learn to use magic. Not a gift such as the sorcerer bloodlines and stuff.

There is basically no difference between how sorcerers work and how wizards work in D&D. You can't cast either of their spells without being a member of an appropriate class, and it takes exactly as much work to multiclass into one as the other.

Very big differences other than they both use spells. Multicalss taks no work.

Learning to cast your first spell from a book is your event as a wizard, just as whatever you did for your event as a sorcerer.

It does not unlock innate gift magic. Wizards do not have a gift like sorcerers by the rules in 5E.

If it was an event, your character would be a sorcerer without a spellbook, maybe with sage apprentice background as example.

You are literally inventing rules here to object to a proposed rule change.

I do not invent anything. It is how the classes work now. If you want to run your games that wizards need innage magic gift like Harry Potter that is good, and would be option 1. Option 2 where wizards have no gift but study and stuff is the other point I made.

I do not object to either. Just stated that you must follow option 1 if you want wizard subclass of sorcerer. If option 2 it makes no sense.

 

[Yaarel]

No, they uses power granted by gods, patrons, nature, spell formulas to perform magic.

Your statement is incorrect, on all accounts.

For example, a Divine character like the Paladin has zero to do with "gods". Even the Cleric derives the magic from a personal connection with the Astral Plane (playtest) via a "cosmic force" (Xanathars), including a philosophy.

For sorcerer it is whatever magic, not just nonhuman. Humans are not inately magic.

Humans are innately magic.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

3e, 4e, and 5e define Psionic as "magic".

5e Psionics officially casts "innate" "spells".

Even AD&D Psionic is defacto magic, and refer to various "spells".

The 4e Martial power source is explicitly "magic". The 5e Martial is defacto magic. 3e Fighter does impossible things − defacto magic.

"Spells" in quotes right? Not spells, but yes WotC made Psionic magic.

1E no. "they enable characters so endowed to perform in ways which resemble magical abilities." from PHB. Resemble.

2E no. Complete Psionic Handbook

"Many people assume that psionics is just another type of magic. The AD&DR game already has two
types of magic-one wielded by wizards and the other by clerics. So it is not unreasonable to ask, "Does
the game need a third type of magic?" The answer is no, the game probably does not need a third kind of
magic. But the question is misinformed because psionics is not magic. Magic is the ability to shape,
control, harness, and utilize natural forces that infuse the game world and surround the characters. It is
based on the principle that, through the use of words, gestures, and catalyzing materials of unique power,
these external energies can be controlled. The key element of that statement is external energy. Magical
effects are produced externally by manipulating outside forces. The power does not come from inside the
wizard or priest but from somewhere else. Psionics is the complete opposite of this."

Your statement is incorrect, on all accounts.

No. Your statement is incorrect. Humans are not inately magic.

For example, a Divine character like the Paladin has zero to do with "gods". Even the Cleric derives the magic from a personal connection with the Astral Plane (playtest) via a "cosmic force" (Xanathars), including a philosophy.

My examples were examples only. Not a complete list of all sources of magic. Only sorcerers is innate. Paladins oaths. Clerics also from connection to something or someplace else. Not innate magic with no outside source.

Humans are innately magic.

You have not shown how at all. I disprove all your claims. You can play this way, but it is not the rule.