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The stupid expectations of some DMs...
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reapersaurus
Explorer
arcady and Berandor -
I sympathise with your predicaments.
Maybe you should game with people that WANT to roleplay, instead of just drumming up enough mouth-breathing live bodies to get a game on.
I sympathise with your predicaments.
Maybe you should game with people that WANT to roleplay, instead of just drumming up enough mouth-breathing live bodies to get a game on.
Err what?
Where does one find these creatures...you call them players? I have never seen such a wondrous beast in my life, fortunately. For if I had then the people who sit around my table while I hide behind a screen and talk (interspersed with dice-rolling) might want to kill it.
Where does one find these creatures...you call them players? I have never seen such a wondrous beast in my life, fortunately. For if I had then the people who sit around my table while I hide behind a screen and talk (interspersed with dice-rolling) might want to kill it.
kamosa
Explorer
When I was first GMing I had quite a bit of trouble getting people to go on the adventure. We would spend hours negotiating a better price from each NPC that tried to hire the unwilling adventures. After a while I got tired of this and decided I wouldn't set myself up for this anymore.
Now I work with the players during character creation to ensure that each character has solid reasons to "go on the adventure". It's not perfect, but my planning time is now mostly taken up with creating the adventure, not the hook.
Work with your players. As a GM ask them "why do you adventure?" Don't be satisfied with "I don't know." Suggest some reasons and motivations. Keep pushing to get your player to create a character not just a collection of stats.
Now I work with the players during character creation to ensure that each character has solid reasons to "go on the adventure". It's not perfect, but my planning time is now mostly taken up with creating the adventure, not the hook.
Work with your players. As a GM ask them "why do you adventure?" Don't be satisfied with "I don't know." Suggest some reasons and motivations. Keep pushing to get your player to create a character not just a collection of stats.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Re: Re: Re: Re: The stupid expectations of some DMs...
I'm afraid I don't really understand this point at all, reapersaurus. Are you suggesting that if the players come up with "adventurer-type" PCs (by which I assume you mean PCs with the motivation and personality to go adventuring), then the DM has to additionally come up with reasons for them to adventure? What? An adventurer-type PC surely HAS reasons to go adventuring. How else can you describe them as adventurer-type PCs?
It is ENTIRELY the player's responsibility to come up with a character who has a reason to go off and see the world. If a player comes to me and says, "Oh, I was thinking of playing a wine merchant who sticks at home and never really goes out. Maybe goes shopping every now and then. Hits the tavern on a Friday night." then I'm going to suggest he rethink things rather dramatically. I'm going to reject that character idea and force him to come up with another.
But I would NEVER tell a player why their character has decided to do anything. It's THEIR character, they get to decide. I can't imagine assigning players motivations for their PCs. Sure, I'll sit down with a player and talk about their character concepts, help them fit it into my world, but the ultimate decision is always the player's. And if a player decides that their character doesn't want to go adventuring, that's totally fine.
Just retire her and roll up a new one.
reapersaurus said:
I'm afraid I don't really understand this point at all, reapersaurus. Are you suggesting that if the players come up with "adventurer-type" PCs (by which I assume you mean PCs with the motivation and personality to go adventuring), then the DM has to additionally come up with reasons for them to adventure? What? An adventurer-type PC surely HAS reasons to go adventuring. How else can you describe them as adventurer-type PCs?
It is ENTIRELY the player's responsibility to come up with a character who has a reason to go off and see the world. If a player comes to me and says, "Oh, I was thinking of playing a wine merchant who sticks at home and never really goes out. Maybe goes shopping every now and then. Hits the tavern on a Friday night." then I'm going to suggest he rethink things rather dramatically. I'm going to reject that character idea and force him to come up with another.
But I would NEVER tell a player why their character has decided to do anything. It's THEIR character, they get to decide. I can't imagine assigning players motivations for their PCs. Sure, I'll sit down with a player and talk about their character concepts, help them fit it into my world, but the ultimate decision is always the player's. And if a player decides that their character doesn't want to go adventuring, that's totally fine.
Just retire her and roll up a new one.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
OF course, there's a flip side to this, too. I remember a one-shot I played in, in which we were all pretty much happy-go-lucky mercenary adventurers. The sole plot hook was that in a repressive society, a furtive elf took us to a restaurant's basement, where an obviously undead halfling wanted to hire us to go rob a tomb.
Um.
The temptation to jump up and smite the halfling was pretty strong, but it was clear that that would end the night's session. I'd certainly not envisioned my character as one that would easily take orders from the undead. Eventually I compromised, demanded a much higher fee than the undead had originally offered, and went along with the plot hook.
So maybe here's part of the tradeoff:
-Players should make characters who don't play it safe, who are willing to take ridiculous risks.
-DMs should make hooks that, however dangerous, appeal to the PCs' desires.
Daniel
Um.
The temptation to jump up and smite the halfling was pretty strong, but it was clear that that would end the night's session. I'd certainly not envisioned my character as one that would easily take orders from the undead. Eventually I compromised, demanded a much higher fee than the undead had originally offered, and went along with the plot hook.
So maybe here's part of the tradeoff:
-Players should make characters who don't play it safe, who are willing to take ridiculous risks.
-DMs should make hooks that, however dangerous, appeal to the PCs' desires.
Daniel
reapersaurus
Explorer
Very well stated.Pielorinho said:
(I thought I had mademyself clear, but apparently not)
DM's:
It IS the player's responsibility to create a character that would be willing to risk their life and limb for adventure (riches, boredom, whatever).
It IS the DM's responsibility to create a hook that would reasonably interest the PC's enough to go to that risk.
Is that clear enough?
Example:
If I make a character that is interested in seeing the world and show everybody his "stuff" (you know what I mean
) and the DM has the leader of the town ask you to accomplish a fact-finding mission, than the DM is out of line if he assumes that you will risk your life attacking a horde of orcs beside the road.For most PC's, the prime motivator should NOT be "what fight can we get into tonight" or "I wonder what treasure the DM's going to give out this session".
The prime motivator should be to STAY ALIVE.
Secondarily, their adventuring personalities will draw them into dangerous situations.
I just don't agree anymore with the unrealistic assumption by DM's that the PC's should be suicidal for their games to work.
If your prime motive as a PC is to stay alive, grow some apple trees and a open a fruit stand.
There is a difference between being suicidal and heroic, and PCs, in terms of the cast in the rest of the world, are definitely a cut above average. Were Zorro, Conan, Aragorn, etc. suicidal or heroic?
The world in an "adventure" is not going to get handed to you on a silver platter.
If I want the drudgery of every day life, I will play the games Arcady mentioned, and not play D&D. If I want the chance to swing across a balcony on a rope and attack the evil wizard whilst my comrades fight off his minions below, then I play D&D.
You seem to have quite an adversarial position with DMs, Reaper. Lots of bad experiences?
There is a difference between being suicidal and heroic, and PCs, in terms of the cast in the rest of the world, are definitely a cut above average. Were Zorro, Conan, Aragorn, etc. suicidal or heroic?
The world in an "adventure" is not going to get handed to you on a silver platter.
If I want the drudgery of every day life, I will play the games Arcady mentioned, and not play D&D. If I want the chance to swing across a balcony on a rope and attack the evil wizard whilst my comrades fight off his minions below, then I play D&D.
You seem to have quite an adversarial position with DMs, Reaper. Lots of bad experiences?
LostSoul
Adventurer
I think that a lot of DMs blame the players when they don't describe things clearly enough. As a DM you have to realize that you will probably do that during the game, and be ready for it.
I also think that DMs should allow players to have more input into the game world. Even to the point of describing combats or throwing characterization onto the "mooks" they are fighting. Maybe even making up plot hooks as they go along:
PC: "I check each of the dead bandits for tatoos. Are there any?"
DM: "They have a few."
PC: "Look at this, guys. This bandit has the mark of Sashis on him - an evil demon worshipping cult. I wonder what they are doing out here?"
DM: (thinking to himself) "I wonder if I could work that into the game..."
I also think that DMs should allow players to have more input into the game world. Even to the point of describing combats or throwing characterization onto the "mooks" they are fighting. Maybe even making up plot hooks as they go along:
PC: "I check each of the dead bandits for tatoos. Are there any?"
DM: "They have a few."
PC: "Look at this, guys. This bandit has the mark of Sashis on him - an evil demon worshipping cult. I wonder what they are doing out here?"
DM: (thinking to himself) "I wonder if I could work that into the game..."
roversaurus
First Post
my campaign logs
You know, some times a player might really WANT to play
a character who doesn't really want to "adventure".
Who wouldn't want to play Bilbo Baggins?
One of my favorite characters to DM was "Bodda".
Not long into the campaign the player decided that
his character really just wanted to settle down.
He lied his way into a marriage to the daughter of
a land owner and became a farmer.
It was a lot of fun as the DM trying to figure out ways
to get him into an adventure.
Of course, he had made some enemies and he had friends
who needed help. And some previous lies of his had made
many locals think that there was a brave soul named
"Bodda" who was very powerful and capable of defeating
their enemies. So he was sought out for help several times.
Usually if the character is *interesting* it isn't hard to bring
an adventure hook to them. Of course sometimes the
hook is more like a fish hook and snares them whether they
want it or not.
I don't require PC who want the adventuring life. I just want
them to be interesting. As long as the party isn't too diverse
I'll bring them all in.
And if they really want to farm. Fine. The crops grow. You have
children. You grow older.
You know, some times a player might really WANT to play
a character who doesn't really want to "adventure".
Who wouldn't want to play Bilbo Baggins?
One of my favorite characters to DM was "Bodda".
Not long into the campaign the player decided that
his character really just wanted to settle down.
He lied his way into a marriage to the daughter of
a land owner and became a farmer.
It was a lot of fun as the DM trying to figure out ways
to get him into an adventure.
Of course, he had made some enemies and he had friends
who needed help. And some previous lies of his had made
many locals think that there was a brave soul named
"Bodda" who was very powerful and capable of defeating
their enemies. So he was sought out for help several times.
Usually if the character is *interesting* it isn't hard to bring
an adventure hook to them. Of course sometimes the
hook is more like a fish hook and snares them whether they
want it or not.
I don't require PC who want the adventuring life. I just want
them to be interesting. As long as the party isn't too diverse
I'll bring them all in.
And if they really want to farm. Fine. The crops grow. You have
children. You grow older.
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