Theocracy vs. Magocracy: who would win?

DungeonKeeperUK

First Post
Re: Hmmm

Darklone said:
Interesting question.

Most guys answered with D&D rules in the head.

Another approach: It's a full scale war. War is all about logistics and support of the population. Wizards are not very likely to be respected and loved rulers... While clerics and a church tends to motivate the populace.

Just the [point I was going to make, if both sides are "equally" balanced then I'd go for the Theocracy, if theings go bad they have faith on their side, something that will boost the morale of thier troops.... Look at probably the main cause of war thoughout our history, religion, people with a casue will fight that much harder I beleive....
 

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Al

First Post
The wizards win a marginal victory.

We have to ask why?
Three reasons: Battle Strategies, Logistics and Defenses.

Battle Strategies

Because given field battles, direct-damage spells are infinitely more powerful than healing spells.

Option A: The warriors all fight in a tight formation, as medieval armies and all troops up to the late 19th century did. The wizards blast them with area-effect spells. The wizards win.

Option B: The cleric's troops form skirmish formation. The wizards' fighters go in and slice them to ribbons: IN ALL historical scenarios where an organised regular formation has encountered a skirmish group, the regular formation has the incredible advantage. The wizards win.

Logistics

Wizards have greater access to Knowledge skills, so one assume that their economy and resource management is better structured, especially combined with wizards' inclination towards law.

Wizards have more bonus feats and hence are more likely to craft magical items for their followers.

Defenses

Wizards can both create and destroy defenses better than clerics. Wizards can undermine and break key fortresses with spells like Transmute Rock to Mud and Disintegrate. They can circumvent defenses with spells like Teleport and Fly. This means that they can effectively eliminate clerical high command with a few well-placed, hyped-up Teleporting mage-assassins (not wizard/assassins necessarily).

As for creating defenses, they have spells such as Move Earth, and the various Creation spells. They can perform this relatively easily and create defenses at a far greater pace.

I haven't time for any more reasons, but there are others- mobility (Expeditious Retreat), better at long-range targeted guaranteed spells (100 Magic Missiles vs. the enemy general), stronger defensive spells etc. etc. etc.

Healing and raise dead doesn't really matter: in a full-scale war, there is no way you can raise enough to make a key difference.
 

Storminator

First Post
That's why they fight the wars!

This all reminds me of sportscasters trying to pick the games. After all the analysis and stat breakdowns it all comes down to playing the games. Same here. Once you start rolling dice, all bets are off.

PS
 

BTW, if the magocracy had bards with them (since, once again, without bards or some 3rd hybrid class, the two are already imbalanced to begin with, unless you removed paladins), that would raise the morale of the populace quite a bit :D
 

jollyninja

First Post
i would say that the nature of the religion involved really needs to be looked at. if they are lawful good and have paladins, they would be pretty formidable, but i think that their morality would get them nothing but trouble in a wartime situation.

that said, if you took 10 lev 1 fighters agianst a typical lev 10 wizard, it would be all about initiative, wizard wins, all fighters dead, fighters win, he's grappled and useless.

i agree that religion tends to draw more of a reaction then other motivating factors. i would take the theocracy in a close one due to the fact that it's easy to accept death if you percieve yourself as a martyr. and the fact that in a magocracy, the common folk would usually be really jealous of the wizards deep down. that would make them less willing to fight for the wizards unless they were terrified of the religion that the theocrats represented.....

i do not know, to many factors.
 

Why not play Timeline and find out?

http://www.d20timeline.com

In our system, you can compare civs from various eras with various denizens with various ruling parties including clerics, mages, commoners, aristocrats, rogues, fighters, entertainers, scientists...

Few here are mentioning mage intelligence and focus on research instead of faith and wisdom. If given time Magocracies might get the technological edge over Theocracies.

One thing to keep in mind is that most fantasy societies are going to need just about every class to function well. Ruling castes are going to try to allocate funds and base laws to benefit themselves but they'll still need others technologies to survive.

Now if you're talking about an army of clerics versus an army of wizards, well, that's a separate thread. :)
 

mmu1

First Post
Well, if we're giving the mages bards, let's give the clerics druids... Lots and lots of 40' radius entangle spells against massed troop formations, while dire badgers with magic fang burrow to flank. Or maybe awakened grizzly bears with barbarian levels. :)
 
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Nightfall

Sage of the Scarred Lands
Depends. Any titanspawn involved? Heck even a titan perhaps?! ;) I'd vote Theocracy but only if there are Mithril Knights, Iron Knights, Gold Knights and Silver Knights involved. Otherwise the archmagi win easily! ;)
 

ThenHeCame

First Post
Since the Theocracy has paladins, I'll assume they are LG. Since they are LG, they would only attack the Mageocracy if they were evil, so I'll assume the mages are evil.

In the opening bouts of the war, The mages would dominate with flying wizards with wands of Fireballs and Icestorms would cut huge swaths in the holyman lines. Entire troupes of the Wizard's warriors would march behind clerical lines under invisbility and attack with hasted swords bulgeing with Bull's Strength.

After the intial shock of getting their asses handed to them, the clerics would regroup and start useing group prayers to banish foregin magics from their camps, use stirring speeches to rally the troops, getting them into a frenzy. Paladins weilding holy swords would lead their blood lusted troops into the fray, pushing back the wizards across to the last lines of their defense. On the feild, the wizards would be routed for a time.

The clerics would close in on the Wizard towers, when they are met by a hybrid warrior they were not expecting, Fighter/Wizard multi-class. Fighters shooting magic missles and lighting bolts while cutting down men would halt the clerical advance. Wizard's useing fantastic illusionary would dupe the clerics into vulnrable postions and devistate them. Here the clerical advance is halted and brought back and a stalemate accures.

Now stalemated, by day bloody fighting would accure and both sides would dig in ( Trenches, etc, etc ) franticly but clerical healing would keep the edge and make slow gains. By night the wizards under the cover of darkness would weild terrible magic, spells of death and destruction would rain down. High Priests and Arch mages would openly ruin one another in loud destructive duels. Wizards would gain the upper hand here.

The Stalemate would be broken by a clerical charge sending the wizard's normal force scattering and retreating. The clerics again push hard, looking for a death blow and end this conflict. Wizard/Fighters would take the feild again, this time aided by numerous Golems of Iron, Stone and Clay. This would once again halt the clerical advance, but moral is high and their soliders will not budge. Here the wizards really dig deep into their bag of tricks and try everything, spreading diseases and poisioning the water source affects some men, but the clerics quickly take care of such threats. Some wizards even chance to start raiseing dead, sending droves of Zombies and Skelatons into clerical camps only to have them deystroyed without great effort.

The Fighter/Wizard hybrids finally break, too few to begin with, they have lost too much of their numbers to hold the lines anymore and the remiaing wizard troop forces and multiclass fighters flee for the towers to regroup. Now the clerics really begin to press their Arcane foes. Seige engines are brought forth and luanch a seige on the wizard towers. The Arcane masters in return, launch magical fireballs and Icestroms, doing the best they can to return fire.

Now the Arcane masters decide to end this fight for once and fore all. Their resouces are all but depleted. No longer can they mass produce wands of fireballs and such and the number of fighting men grow shorter everyday. A number of them teleport out and to the other side of the battle feild, behind enemy lines and begin useing conjureing spells, summing creatures from all over the planes and the earth. With these foul beings at hand they attack the clerical lines from behind, while the towers luanch their own assult with what golems and soliders they have left. A terrible battle ensues as soliders of purity and light struggle against vile evil creatures for their life. Priests and Paladins do their best banish foes from their plane and a mounted Calvary strike from fresh reinforcements ride in and seize the day.

Combat engulfs the first few towers as mages use retributive stikres with their precious staves to finish themselves off and take down soliders with them. Towers burn and blaze with holy fire. Mass charms are shot off, but don't turn the tide is the slighest as moral is too high for men to affected in great numbers. It seems the Arcane Masters have lost.

Or have they? Metor swarms light the sky, wishes are uttered as the last few arch-mages kill themselves and who ever else in blaze of glory, cutting large swaths in Divine lines.But the last few Archmages gather in the last tower and begin a dark ritual. They summon Orcus with all their power and offer him the plane, scaraficeing themselves in the process. Abyssal gates open and demons flood in with great numbers. Wizartds,Cleric and Paladin alike are taken down. The war belongs to the demons.

So, the Wizards win by defualt, but the real victory belongs to Orcus :)
 


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