These are not stories!

[Wizardry]

I understand your reaction, and that you were being rhetorical -- but papa_laz hit a nerve, so I was (and still am) being snappy. Please accept my responses with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

No problem.

I will qualify my statement with "In the creative fields, I believe there is no job harder than writing."

And if you don't believe that, then you haven't lived through a writer's strike.

Well, I would disagree there. From your point of view, writing seems to be the most difficult creative field to work in, but others would disagree. Some people would find art or writing music much harder than writing well, for example. It's all subjective, really.

I WAS going to leave it at that ...

This leads me into a combination mini-rant/inspirational speech. No offense intended, of course.

By an odd coincidence, whenever some writer friends and I get into a nasty situation in production, we look at each other and say, "We ain't moving boxes."

But we say that -- or at least I do, because I did that job. And bartended, and worked a gas pipeline digging ditches, etc., etc. And so I know the difference here.

Making a living writing is not easier. It's more pleasant once you're actually doing it, but not easier. Seemingly a fine distinction, but that's what life is, a series of fine distinctions.

Well, again it depends on your subjective experience in the matter. Some people would find writing much easier than digging ditches, and vice versa. But the majority of people would prefer to be writing, because, as you said, it's more pleasant.

Leading us to the second qualified statement: "Writing for a living is not the hardest job in the world -- but it is incredibly, stupefyingly, exponentially harder than pretty much anyone thinks it is."

You "live off" an inheritance. You "live off" a lottery win.

You don't "live off" your imagination and writing skills.

Another fine distinction? I could argue a ditch digger is "living off" of his physical fitness and endurance. I understand what you're saying, here, of course, and believe me, I know writing isn't easy and you don't get a free ride off of doing it.

If you have imagination and writing skills, you have the barest, barest tools necessary to pay your bills with them. Now learn to harness that imagination with narrative structures, dialog techniques and industry-specific styles and tools.

Then, fill blank pages. Fill thousands of them. And if you don't fill them, no co-worker will step in. No union will help you. And no one will care if you didn't fill them, and ask to help, or encourage you (except maybe a loved one. Good for you, now get back to writing.). Now every day, wake up and make something brand new. Or don't get paid. No sick days. No day where you just sort of zone out and get by.

In your experience. You're correct that you have no "sick days", but then again you don't have to be at work at a certain time every day, put in a certain amount of work, and then do it again the next day. Writing is much more of a freeform experience, and it varies greatly from writer to writer.

Is writing digging ditches? Not hardly, don't envy that job. But a frikkin' artsy-fartsy life of dashing off a few thoughts before tea-time? Noooo.

Sure, being a writer isn't bad. You could even say "easy" if you disregard the whole ten years on the way to becoming one. But, sadly, that's kind of the package.

By the by, I'm mostly discussing this because I enjoy it, and I think you misunderstood the main thrust of my point, which I'll bring up now... No job is easy, and no one job is in every way possible harder than other jobs available. Some people will have an easy time in a job others struggle in, and vice versa. But regardless of what career you choose to focus yourself in, you will encounter difficulties and hardships on the way to success, if you ever get there.

A job is not something you do (unless you're very, very lucky) because you like/love to do it, you do it so you can get the money and financial independence to do what you really want to do in life. I actually consider writing a "better" job than most because it's more likely than usual you actually enjoy what you do, but that doesn't mean it's "easy" or responsibility free. But it most certainly isn't the "hardest" job out there, but of course almost no job can be qualified as the "hardest", since they all have their own unique problems and difficulties to be faced. Which brings us to the next part of your post.

(Okay, we're getting to the inspirational part.)

If you want to write for a living, and you just don't have the talent, that sucks. Nothing's more frustrating.

But IF you have the talent and IF you have the skills, and you'd do "almost anything ..." then shut up and do "anything." I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR YOU.

(That's inspirational? Wait, wait, it's coming ...)

Because this is the one field where you don't have to know anybody, you don't have to have gone to school for it (I didn't, nor did most of my friends) or have any seniority. You need to fill pages. Ten minutes a day, fifteen minutes a day, for however many years. Housewives with nine kids do it. Commuters do it. Guys in frikkin' PRISON CAMPS do it.

Come get this life. Come take it away from me, and from every other professional writer, take it as your own. Simple statistics say you're probably more talented than we are. Write more pages, work harder and come tear this career from my bloated, bloody corpse and wave it triumphantly overhead.



(Hmm, very Warren Ellis-y today, no?)

Usually I'm Mr. Nicey-nicey on the boards. But what the heck, for one day I'll be unapologetically opinionated.

So for those "plenty of people who would do almost anything to write for a living ..."

Type or shut up.

John

You call that not being nicey-nicey? Pffft. You just don't have the "I am going to crush you with my words and leave you feeling insignificant and worthless" vibe you really need to have, here.

Yes, it can be difficult to be a writer, but my point wasn't that writing was "easy", it was that writing isn't the hardest job in the world, and some people would love to be doing what you're doing. As I said earlier, I consider writing to be a nicer job than most because you have a higher chance of actually liking what you're doing, but that doesn't change the fact work is work is work. Any job can be hard, in it's own way, and the experience in each job varies from person to person.

 

[Snoweel]

You fail to account for the vast numbers of yanks who read the post, summed it up as a troll, and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

From a purely statistical standpoint, the evidence is clear that aussies are more prone to fall for trolling and flame-bait.

Now, now, don't be a dope, Wulf.

If you wanna talk statistics, of all the posts in this thread, at least 2 were by Aussies.

But of all the flames, 0% were by my countrymen.

You do the maths, or what do you call it? Math?

 

[Snoweel]

I also disagree. I find writing to be maybe half as difficult as most things I've tried. I may not be paid for it, and so I've got no editor breathing down my paycheck, but I feel like I do an okay slap-around job. It's pretty easy.

I'm a bricklayer. It's hard. I won't get out of bed to lay bricks for less than AUS$30 an hour. Why can a stupid, uneducated man make that much money at a job?

Supply and demand - NOBODY wants to be a bricklayer.

It's hard.

Union? Co-workers?

I'm a sub-contractor. If I don't produce, I go hungry. Just like a writer.

HOWEVER!

I enjoy writing so much, I do it in my spare time. For free. You won't find many people who lay bricks "just for fun".

And as for write or shut-up: with up to 60 hours a week on-site, not to mention unpaid planning in my own time, and Uni at nights (I see how busted-up and soul-destroyed old brickies are, and I refuse to be arthritic, near-crippled and alcoholic by 40, hence I go to Uni), I don't currently have enough time to write as much as I need to to make a living from it.

Nor do I have enough faith in my ability to take the risk of quitting Uni, getting a job as a parking station attendant and freeing up all that time to make a fist of writing.

So, as I see it, writing: nice job, if you can get it.

 

[Snoweel]

Snoweel means that while you are an atrocious writer, you're still better than all the other story hour writers, who are even worse than atrocious.

No.

 

[Piratecat]

I was going to close this, but... err... it's turned out to be kind of cool. I think Jonrog had me hooked when he started spitting on my corneas.

 

[KidCthulhu]

Papa, I have one rebuttal to your argument that these are not stories. Consider for a moment you are out to dinner with some friends. Your buddy turns to you and says "Hey, tell them the one about your brother in law and the labrador". So you begin to tell. First you must tell them a little about your stubborn, occasionally stupid brother in law, who is prone to acting long before he thinks. Then, you have to tell them about the dog, how old it was, why your brother in law was alone with the dog, and how the situation came about.

Then you tell the tale, and everyone laughs. And is this not a story? Have you not told people about the characters and world ahead of time? Yep. But in the very oldest and strongest hairy people sitting around the fire telling tales to keep the monsters at bay sense of the word, this is a story. Take a look at the Homer and Virgil some day. Look at the oldest folk tales known to man. They tell you about the characters and the world first. But they're just old hacks.

And Jonrog, you're my hero. When I used to be in the game design world, I used a similar phrase to yours, only I used to say "Yeah, I know you're a genius, but can you be a genius before five o'clock?" to address all those game design wannabes who thought it was all about waiting for the muse to dance in and goose them, rather than just working, day in and day out and producing as well as you can.

 

[jonrog1]

Wait, how did papa-laz skate by and now I'm the troll-er?

First off -- man was I cranky last night. That'll teach me to post at 5 a.m. when I'm fighting insanely bad studio notes.

Wizardy, forgive the snappiness. I'm just damn sick of the whole "wow, you're so lucky you get to make a living doing what you like" thing, so any argument even dipping into that realm tends to set me off, particularly at 5 am.

I am lucky I'm good at something. I am lucky that at this point in history, being good at that "something" can occasionally pay very well as opposed to just paying the bills.

But lucky to be making a living doing what I like -- feh. We all pay our prices for what we want. That the end result is a decent life practicing your craft rather than a house, or new car, certain relationships, or kids didn't knock those prices down any.

Belief in luck is a crutch with a poison spike.

I don't know who these writer are who are living the "free-form experience" and who don't sweat blood on the page and didn't spend years honing their craft (and they're out there, I know, I know), but god bless 'em they are a tiny, tiny minority.

But for the sake of settling this once and for all: yes, yes, many jobs are very hard in their own way. Mea culpa

And as for write or shut-up: with up to 60 hours a week on-site, not to mention unpaid planning in my own time, and Uni at nights (I see how busted-up and soul-destroyed old brickies are, and I refuse to be arthritic, near-crippled and alcoholic by 40, hence I go to Uni), I don't currently have enough time to write as much as I need to to make a living from it.

Nor do I have enough faith in my ability to take the risk of quitting Uni, getting a job as a parking station attendant and freeing up all that time to make a fist of writing.

So, as I see it, writing: nice job, if you can get it.

"Type or shut-up" is a little out of context. I meant it originally that papa-laz better show some actual chops before he went around critcizing anyone who laid their own words and self-images on the line. If you want to write, write. Doesn't matter if you get paid or not. It just matters that you're putting it out there.

Now, in the context of "if you want to write for a living, write", don't misunderstand me. That's a whooole different context.

First, you're doing an amazing thing going to Uni -- you're changing your life and not just waiting for it to change. Whatever you're going to Uni for, that's your goal, and when you get it , you'll be able to say "Put up or shut up" with pride.

But "if you want to write for a living, write" doesn't mean quit your job and write for a living NOW. Not what I meant, and frankly that's insane -- because if somebody does that without doing all the groundwork, they won't be prepared to write for a living. It's like saying "if you want to play concert piano for a living, quit your job and play concert piano, without any practice."

Who in their right mind would think that? No one. So why do so many people quit their jobs to become writers full-time? Lord, I don't know. But for some reason that's the stereotype of what you have to do to become a writer. And it's crrrraaaappp, with a big Fat Bastard rolling "r" in the middle.

What I meant was "if you want to write for a living, begin the long, grueling process of filling all those pages" right now. A page a day. Three a day. And then, eventually, one may have the luck (heh, point to Wizardy) to write for a living.

Okay, I'm done. I said I was sorry, I clarified my positions, and I encouraged others to follow their dreams in a sane, sensible way. Can I go back to being the pro who was defending his amateur pals as opposed to the arrogant bastard who doesn't understand how lucky he is to have this great career drop on his lap for free?

 

[KidCthulhu]

Don't you dare backpedal, jonrog. You spoke the truth in a measured and intellegent way. You were snarky, but in a polite and informed way. You have done no wrong, and I, for one, loved watching you go to town on papa. No blood, no foul.

 

[Piratecat]

Serves you right for being more interesting than the thread's originator.

 

[Mialee]

Writing is hard?

Try posing for Sam Wood sometimes and feeling that little creep's eyes crawling all over you like graveworms. Ick.

Try putting up with Monte's endless kvetching about how an elf "just wouldn't WEAR her hair like that", and how I need to "braid it and put some leaves in there or something".

Try being Warren Reynolds' shoulder to cry on over rounds of Pabst Blue Ribbon whenever he gets his name misspelled in the latest supplement.

Peddle your pity party raffle tickets elsewhere, Jonrog. You don't know a hard profession until you're rendered in acrylic paint by some two-bit "I want to be the next Lockwood" schmuck fresh out of his community college's weekend painting 1 class.