D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts on converting BoBS to 3.5 (inc Spoilers)

[FrankinLondon]

Hi everyone, first post to Enworld here.

I am in the process of converting Bastion of Broken Souls to 3.5 and am taking the opportunity to adjust the levels of each encounter as I go.

The three main reasons for adjusting levels are :-

a) I thought that some of the encounters in BoBS (3.0) were plain too weak - although some are horrifyingly high as well.

b) Conversion to 3.5 seriously nerfs some very common monster/NPC spells (e.g. Haste)

c) Conversion of Demons from 3.0 to 3.5 seriously powers up any encounter

Before I start, I better tell you something about my party. They consist of

12th/6th Cleric/Fighter
14th/3rd Fighter Rogue
17th Sorcerer
17th Cleric
17th Ranger (Arching variety)

We use the core rulebooks only and hence have no access to splatbook spells and feats. The party have reasonable levels of magic treasure for their level.

So, my thoughts so far on adjustments are

Cathezar Encounter(s)

I have made the following changes to the Cathezar :-

a) Increased Constitution to 32 (she is supposed to be more powerful than Balors) to give her a total of 310 hp, up from 250 hp.
b) Altered her DR to be DR 10/Good and Cold Iron and Silver to reflect her joint demon/devil heritage. Tough because it will require holy/blessed, cold iron weapons treated with silversheen to get through, but at least it's only 10 points off.
c) Reduced the summon fiends to be either a Marilith or a Horned Devil as the thought of the Cathezar AND a PitFiend/Balor for the first encounter a bit mindbogglingly rough.

Dreamer Prime Encounter

I have altered the Dreamborn Tigers to be Dreamborn Dire Tigers. I find the thought of CR 6 creatures in a 18th level adventure to be a little demeaning to both the DM and the players. Giving the Tigers 120hp as opposed to 45 should enable them to get a couple of hits in each before biting the dust. Other than that, I have left this encounter much as it was.

Pandemonium Encounter

I have left Eco and Bramam as per the 3.5 ed MM (+additional magic items).

Desayeus Encounter

The Lillends convert easily. Desayeus is now as per a 3.5 ed Titan with maximum hp and enhanced natural armour). This seriously increases his hp (from 280 to 440), but gives him much reduced spell usage.

Bastion Entrance Encounter

I have simply converted all of the demons to their 3.5 versions which seriously bumps them up, but I still believe that this would be a walkover for the party if it wasn't for the retriever. Under 3.5 ed, I make it that a 30th level Retriever has 405 hp (up from 165). This should give the encounter a bit more ooomph.

First Encounter Inside The Bastion

I have left the Dragonspawn here much as described. I have given Po Bracers of Health +6 to increase his hp as he was likely to not last too long.

Paraselson Encounter

I hope to get Po away from the last encounter to re-inforce Paraselson and Myra here. I believe that this encounter is underpowered anyway, so have bumped Myra up to 18th level Cleric (from 13th).

Main Demon Encounter

I intend to re-inforce the Demons with The Cathezar here. The thought of 2 3.5 Balors plus the Cathezar gives me the willies, so I have converted one of the Balors (Buphalthus) into a Marilith. I would be very interested in your thoughts on this.

Ashardalon

I don't know what to do here. It seems to me that Ashardalon as described is seriously nerfed for a Great Red Wyrm (but a Great Red Wyrm is a tough old encounter for a party of -I guess- 19th level characters). OK, the lack of mobility is pretty much central to the whole plot. However, I don't see why he hasn't learned any divine spells. I am tempted to redo his spell list to include Heal as a minimum. I am also considering giving him Mordenkainens Disjunction (I think the party will have this by then). I also am considering replacing the Timestop in the Ring of Greater Counterspelling with Otto's Irresistable Dance.

I am also considering upping the level of Pemoka, but don't want to overdo it.

The problem with this encounter is it could very easily be over in a couple of rounds either way.

Any thoughts from all you (much more experienced DMs out there (especially anyone who has run a converted BoBS themselves) ?

Thanks in anticipation.

Frank

 

[Bernardus]

Hi,

I am also trying to convert BoBS from 3.0 to 3.5.

This is my converted Cathezar.
I used a Marilith and a Kyton (Chain Devil)
It is not quiet finished I think, maybe you have some tips.
Here it is:

The Cathezar

Large Outsider (Neutral, Extraplanar, Evil)
Half Demon/Half Devil

Hit Dice: 16d8+128 and 8d8+64 (312 hp)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 35 (-1 Size, +10 Dex, 16 Natural), touch 19, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +17/+27
Attack: Chain rake +27 (2d6+11)
Full Attack: +27/+22/+17/+12/+7 (2d6+11) and 5 chain rakes +27 (2d6+5) and
tail slap +27 (4d6+5)
Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with Chain)
Special Attacks: Constrict (4d6+16), danching chains, improved grab, spell-like abilities, unnerving gaze
Special Qualities: DR 15/good and cold iron, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10 and fire 10, SR 34, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +27, Will +22
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 30, Con 27, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 24
Skills: Balance +12, Bluff +27, Concentration +23, Diplomacy +11, Escape Artist +32, Hide +26, Intimidate +9, Jump +13, Knowledge (the Planes) +26, Knowledge (religion) +26, Listen +33, Move Silently +30, Search +26, Sense Motive +25, Spellcraft +26, Spot +33, Tumble +33
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (chain rakes)
Organization: Solitary
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Challenge Rating: 23

 

[FrankinLondon]

Bernadus

Looks quite good. Mine is slightly different as follows :-

1) I have kept the Cathezar at 20HD, the same as in the original (in 3.0 a Marilith was 9HD and a Kyton 6HD, so she was never the sum of the two)

2) I think you have your attack bonus wrong. An Outsider has the same BAB as a Fighter so that is +20 for my version and +24 for yours. Her strength is 32 so that is an extra +11. She has Weapon Focus (+1) and is Large (-1). This equals +31 for my version and +35 for yours.

3) I have kept the Cathezars chain damage the same as the module 2d8+11

4) I see you have opted for her to have the same attack sequence as a Marilith, controlling the chains the same way as a Fighter might (using arm power). I assumed that the reason the original module didn't do this was because whe is controlling all 6 chains with her Dancing Chains power. Hence 6 attacks only, but all at full attack bonus and full strength bonus. Your way is fine, but you can only ever have 4 attacks with your primary weaopn (unless you are hasted).

5) I have given the Cathezar a reach of 25'. This is because the original module says she can cause chains to extend by 15'.

6) As explained above, I have given her DR/Good and Cold Iron and Silver (but I am mean)

7) I have given my version a Con of 32 to give her higher hit points than a 3.5 Balor (just makes sense in my little world)

8) I have kept SR at 32 as I see no reason to increase it

9) The original Cathezar at 20th level had 7 feats. You have only given yours 6 at 24th level. If you stick with this level (rough), then you should give her more feats imo

10) Why have you taken away her regen 5 ?

11) I have kept my versions CR as 22.

Hope this helps. What have you decided to do about Ashardalon ?

Frank

 

[Bernardus]

Frank,

Thanx for your input.
I wasn't quit finished and my version was an on the fly conversion, that's why somethings weren't correct yet.
I haven't looked at Ashardalon yet, but will do this and give you my input.
Maybe we can help eacht other with this conversion.


Bernardus.

 

[Bernardus]

Frank,

I have taken a look at Ashardalon and what i would do is take a Red Dragon and put the half fiend template over it.
What I use is an online 3.5 reference document.
The link is:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html
You can also use it offline, if you want to know how to do this, just let me know.

This way you don't have to look in different books, just use the different internet pages. I find it very handy.

The 3.0 version of Ashardalon is a collossal creature, so if you use a Great Wyrm Red Dragon (a collossal creature) it's CR is 26 and then adjusting it by using the Half-fiend template the CR will become: 29.
This is very steep and the party won't survive.
So I think Ashardalon will become an Old or very old (CR 20 or 21) Red dragon. This way it's size will became Gargantuan instead of Collossal.
Than adding the Half-Fiend template the CR will become 23 or 24 and I thnik this will be a good challenge.
Further more Ashardalon is not totally restricted in movement, he can move out of the soulstuff but cannot remain there for more than one round.

Hopes this helps.

Greetings, Bernardus

 

[Lorillomar]

My updated NPCs

My party is almost 1/3 of the way through BoBS. They consist of:
(omitting levels in case they are reading this)
A Wererat Halfling Rogue
A Cleric/Contemplative/Saint
A Wizard/Air Elemental Savant
A Hound Archon Barbarian/Paladin (don't ask)
A Dwarven Fighter who is almost transformed into an Earth Elemental
A Young Battle Dragon/Fighter

Here are my NPC stats:

(PS. Some of their stats include buffs such as Magic Weapon and Unholy Aura. The attachments show them better because they are bolded and bigger)

The Cathezar
Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar)
HD 20d8+240 (Outsider); hp 330
Init +11
Spd 40
AC: 36 (-1 size, +11 Dex, +16 Natural), Flatfooted 25, Touch 20
40 with Unholy Aura

Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+39

Attack: Spiked Chain +39 melee (2d6 + 27 + 1 Vile/19-20) or Tail Slap +34 melee (4d6 + 15 + 1 Vile)

Full Attack: Primary Spiked Chain +35/+30/+25/+20 (2d6 + 23 +1 Vile/19-20) melee and 2 Spiked Chains +35/+30/+25/+35/+30/+25 (2d6 + 12 +1 Vile/19-20) melee and Tail Slap +32 melee (4d6 + 7 +1 Vile)
Automatically confirms criticals against non-outsiders.

Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft with chains)

Special Attacks: Constrict (4d6 + 23), Improved Grab (Ex), Dancing Chains (Su), Unnerving Gaze (Su)

Spell-like Abilities: At Will: Project Image (DC 27), See Invisibility, Telekinesis (DC 26), Teleport, Greater, Unholy Aura (DC 29), Align Weapon, Blade Barrier (DC 27), Magic Weapon (chains only), Summon Tanar`ri (Sp) , Summon Baatezu (Sp); Cast as a 20th level Sorcerer.

Special Qualities: Damage Reduction (Su): 10/Cold Iron and Good, Darkvision (Ex): 60 ft., Immunity: Cold, Electricity, Poison, Fear (Ex), Regeneration (Ex): 5, Resistance: Fire, Acid (Ex): 10, SR 32, True Seeing

AL NE

SV Fort +28, Ref +27, Will +18

STR 40, DEX 33, CON 35, INT 22, WIS 20, CHA 32

Skills: Balance +14, Bluff +27, Concentration +23, Escape Artist +32, Hide +30, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (Religion) +26, Knowledge (The Planes) +26, Listen +28, Move Silently +34, Search +29, Sense Motive +28, Spellcraft +26, Spot +28, Survival +28, Tumble +33, Use Magic Device +34.

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical: Chain, spiked, Large And In Charge, Multiattack, Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, EWP Chain, Spiked (B), Greater Multiweapon Fighting, Simple Weapon Proficiency (B).

Possessions:
Weapons: Chain, spiked (50 gp); Chain, spiked (50 gp); Chain, spiked (50 gp).
Magic: Ring: Blinking (27,000 gp); Wondrous: Crystal Ball (42,000 gp); Wondrous: Helm of Teleportation (73,500 gp), Ring: Vile Weapon (20,000 gp, BoVD), Flesh Ring of Scorn (8,000 gp, BoVD).

I decided that the Cathezar would spend a couple of feats on multiweapon fighting and use them as spiked chains instead of chain rakes. It has worked out pretty well so far. I also gave her a couple of cheap magic items out of Book of Vile Darkness, one which autoconfirms crits against non-outsiders and one which does 1 point of vile damage with each attack.

Nurn, Male Slaad, Death Outsider15/Rog5: CR 18; Medium Outsider (Chaotic,Extraplanar);

HD 15d8+90(Outsider), 5d6+30(Rogue); hp 207;

Init +10;

Spd 30;

AC:33 (Flatfooted:33 Touch:15);

Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+24

Attack: +5 Anarchic Rapier +34 (1d6 + 11 +2d6 vs. Law +3d6 Sneak Attack, 15-20/x2)

Full Attack: +5 Anarchic Rapier +34/+29/+24/+19 (1d6 + 11 +2d6 vs. Law +3d6 Sneak Attack, 15-20/x2) and Offhand Claw +26 (4d6 + 3, 20/x2) and Offhand Bite +26 (2d10 + 3, 20/x2)

SA: Summon Slaad (Sp) , Stun (Ex) , Spell-like Abilities (CL 15): At Will: Animate Objects, Chaos Hammer (DC 21), Deeper Darkness, Detect Magic, Dispel Law (DC 22), Fear (DC 21), Finger of Death (DC 24), Fireball (DC 20), Fly, Identify, Invisibility, Magic Circle against Law, See Invisibility, Shatter (DC 19)
3/Day: Circle of Death (DC 23), Cloak of Chaos (DC 25), Word of Chaos (DC 24)
1/Day: Implosion (DC 26), Power Word, Blind;

SQ: Subtype: Chaotic, Subtype: Extraplanar, Change Shape (Su), Damage Reduction (Su): 10/Law, Darkvision (Ex): 60 ft., Fast Healing (Ex): 5, Immunity: Sonic (Ex), Resistance: Cold (Ex): 5, Resistance: Acid (Ex): 5, Resistance: Electricity (Ex): 5, Resistance: Fire (Ex): 5, No Dual Nature (Ex);

AL CN;

SV Fort +16, Ref +23, Will +14;

STR 22, DEX 31, CON 22, INT 18, WIS 18, CHA 24.

Skills: Bluff +24, Climb +29, Disable Device +20, Escape Artist +26, Hide +33, Intimidate +11, Jump +28, Knowledge (History) +22, Knowledge (The Planes) +22, Listen +22, Move Silently +33, Open Lock +20, Search +27, Spot +27, Tumble +33, Use Magic Device +19.

Feats: Armor Proficiency: light, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (Rapier), Improved Natural Attack: Claw, Multiattack, Power Attack, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier.

Possessions:
Weapons: +5 Rapier: Anarchic (98,320 gp).
Armor: +3 Studded leather (9,175 gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location (35,000 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000 gp).

I am going to wait to handle Ashardalon until I see what level the party is at. I am probably looking at him being a total CR of around 25 and the party's level being somewhere around 21->22. The fact that Ashardalon has his weaknesses should make up for the differences.

I have attached many of my prep documents for the module. Let me know if you have any questions. Ammet is not quite finished but he is pretty close.

 

[Bernardus]

Hello Lorillomar,

Tnx for your input.

I looked at your conversion and I think I saw a small mistake.
De Half-Dragon Balor should have CR23, instead of 22.
A Balor has CR20 and when you use the Half-Dragon template you should ad +3 for the CR.

But for the rest it looks good.
If you have anymore data I would be most gratefull.

Greetings, Bernardus

 

[Lorillomar]

Just re-checked the Half-Dragon CR in the Monster Manual

P. 147: Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2 (minimum 3).

It is Level Adjustment that is +3, and although I would love to run Ammet as my own personal character, I just can't envision the DM who is about to allow that to happen ;-D

I just spoke with Wizards re: advancing monsters by racial hit die vs. class levels, and how it correlates to advancing their Spell Resistance, and they suggest having a monster's Spell Resistance go up by +1 per CR increase, since the base spell resistance amount has been playtested to be correct for a monster of the original CR. I think I agree.

 

[Lorillomar]

Oh, and I also increased Ammet's Hit Dice

DelKain, please go no further...











Spoilers in my campaign coming...











Comparing 3.0 Balor to Ammet, he was increased by 6 HD from 13 to 19. Last night, I decided that 3.5 Ammet should reflect this advancement as well, so I advanced him to 26 HD. By the MM advancement guidelines, that puts him at a CR of 23, so +2 more for the Half-Dragon puts him at CR 25. A very tough fight, to be sure, but I don't plan on the party being able to take him anyway. He figures quite nicely into the endgame for my campaign which is rapidly approaching.

The Blood War is heating up, and starting to spill over into the Prime Material. After Ammet is released and The Cathezar pledges fealty to him, he will spearhead an alliance between the Tanar'ri and Baatezu against all other sentient races in the multiverse. The Blood War will, for the first time in millenia, be put on hold. The Cathezar, with her unique position straddling both sides, will be an able diplomat to forge said alliance.

More than this I cannot say for fear that my party cannot keep out of the thread. In a couple of months I will write it up and submit it here, and all I can say is "wow".

 

[FrankinLondon]

Bernadus

Having re-read the 3.5 Monster Manual, you are right. A Great Red Wyrm is CR 26 and applying a half-fiend template makes it CR29.

However, this is exactly what Ashardalon was in the 3.0 version and in fact, (due to Haste) I feel he was rougher in 3.0 compared to 3.5.

Having promised my gamers an encounter with a Great Red Wyrm for the past 2 years in my campaign, I can't in all conscience reduce him in size now. I also feel he needs the half-fiend template.

A conundrum eh ?

What level will your players be on starting the adventure. Mine are 17th/18th and I believe they will be 20th max by the time they meet Ashardalon.

If you run the encounter before I do (18th & 19th Nov), let me know how it goes.

Frank