D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

[pemerton]

Now just complaining about something -- ironically is actually lazier than producing what the D&D folks have produced -- so all I have to say to the critics of this sort is -- if you do not like then make something better and put it out there and then complain about the D&D that is when you have posted this more in-depth look at whatever it is you felt the system was lacking. To do anything short of that is to part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

I would strongly suggest that you have a read of [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]'s post about 5 or so upthread of yours.

There is nothing lazy about calling out D&D for racial stereotyping. It's more like the opposite, because calling this stuff out takes effort.

So I concur with the statement a ways back that states it is Lazy -- but then D&D has always been rather lazy or just surface glossing

<snip>

This half-effort is every where and not just in the terms of racial stereotyping but in the aspect of the economy and such.

I'm not sure how much you thought through your post - but you've just equated lazy stereotypes of people with a lack of detailed attention to economics.

Read the article linked to in the OP: the non-white gamers who are quoted aren't voicing scholarly objections to anthropological or historical inaccuracy. They're not pedants. They're talking about the way the game represents non-white people. Which is to say, the way it does, or doesn't, make them - those non-white gamers - part of the gameworld.

 

[pemerton]

FWIW, this is the write up on the Turmish people in the PHB (and Basic Rules). I put it here not to validate or invalidate anyone's arguments, but in the interest of providing fuller information:

TURAMI

Native to the southern shore of the Inner Sea, the Turami people are generally tall and muscular, with dark mahogany skin, curly black hair, and dark eyes.

Turami Names:
(Male) Anton, Diero, Marcon, Pieron, Rimardo, Romero, Salazar, Umbero; (female) Balama, Dona, Faila, Jalana, Luisa, Marta, Quara, Selise, Vonda; (surnames) Agosto, Astorio, Calabra, Domine, Falone, Marivaldi, Pisacar, Ramondo

I'm no linguist, but those seem to be Romance-language names. What's with that?

 

[Alexemplar]

Well, maybe "featured" us a bit strong, then; the extent of the write-up is in the names section for humans, same as any other ethnicity included.

And those names are more southern European than anything with surnames like Agosto, Astoria, Calabra, Domine,
Falone, Marivaldi, Pisacar, and Ramondo.

 

[Caliburn101]

Forgotten Realms is a bland kitchen-sink setting with a whole bunch of racial and cultural clichés in it. Northern barbarians anyone? They are less advanced than the Chultans 'because Vikings', and Barbarians are a Int stat dump raging murder hobos 'because Vikings'.

I wonder how sensitive Norwegians are about that?

There are some points in the article worthy of note, but it is an over-reaction that takes no account of the fact that FR was not created by WotC, and they cannot change it lock, stock and barrel from previous incarnations.

Using FR was a decision made entirely independent of any thoughts as to the welcome progressive material seen in the main rules books, and I don't think the WotC team will be happy being called racists, which is what this article does.

I really don't think they are...

That said, it would be interesting to have an advanced Black culture in a D&D game world. I myself have homebrewed a Black race who overthrew Aberrations who ruled them in the distant past, and became great city builders, miners and craftspeople whose work rivals the Dwarves and Elves.

The difference is, I wasn't adapting an established and lazy IP like FR - I had an empty palette to start with.

We have seen what WotC do when they do have carte blanche, and that is well reflected in the rule books.

Making such significant criticisms of this one adventure is unfair.

If, a few years down the line we don't see something Black-based where the fantasy race involved isn't every bit as powerful and interesting as the 'eurocentric' racial clichés on the Sword Coast etc. then perhaps we should be asking why not.

 

[DeJoker]

I would strongly suggest that you have a read of @Imaro's post about 5 or so upthread of yours.

Nice you want me to go look at something but do not provide the link to the specific post so not only will I need to go search for it I will have to guess which one you are referencing. **sigh**

Thanks @pemerton... and just so you know, while I know we butt heads about methodology and playstyle... alot, lol... I have always respected your opinions and found posting back and forth with you engaging. As for threads like these I feel they're a good thing for the hobby in general but just draining for me when I'm reading them so I'll tend to post sporadically in them mainly because it takes a lot for me to get over the feeling that it's a waste of time and to instead muster the desire to engage properly with them.

So I am going to guess (counting back 5 posts) this is the one you were referring too (if not too bad you left it to me to choose which post you meant) as such all I can say is -- okay so he has proclaimed that he has little interest in topics like these and considers them to be chores --- so with that logic as your defense then following must be true as well -- if I consider it a chore to pick up and answer a phone that is right next to me on my desk and then do so you are saying that I have just exerted a major amount of effort and should get paid a full days wages for that small act -- correct?

There is nothing lazy about calling out D&D for racial stereotyping. It's more like the opposite, because calling this stuff out takes effort.

So you are saying that calling this stuff out takes more effort (or even the same amount of effort) than it would to create a solution that addresses the situation along with the complaint (or even by itself)??

I'm not sure how much you thought through your post - but you've just equated lazy stereotypes of people with a lack of detailed attention to economics.

I seem to have thought more about my post than you did about your rebuttal. For yes laziness is laziness when it shows up somewhere in something it is bound to show up somewhere else -- my statement -- to help you understand it -- is that yes they are lazy with stereotyping but then they are also lazy with this and this and this -- is it a defense for their laziness? heck no -- it is simply pointing out the obvious that seemed to have been overlooked -- or the writers of said article are expecting far too much from someone that is obviously not really caring about that and only want to put out just enough effort to get by (aka who are lazy).

Read the article linked to in the OP: the non-white gamers who are quoted aren't voicing scholarly objections to anthropological or historical inaccuracy. They're not pedants. They're talking about the way the game represents non-white people. Which is to say, the way it does, or doesn't, make them - those non-white gamers - part of the game-world.

Oh I read the article and again I will state -- those writers are 1) Expecting far to much from a lazy company and 2) Are being even lazier themselves by just denoting a problem without providing a solution. (And your assumption is something you ought to re-examining as you missed the mark by a mile)

As to item #2 since you seem to think complaining about something actually takes effort -- in the business world if you came to a good boss complaining about some aspect of a company process they would say okay so what are some solutions. For in the business world it is known that it takes incredibly little effort to complain about something but takes significant quality effort to provide potential solutions and then complain about it. Further, if you are going to just complain about something without providing a solution then expect that complaint to get as much effort as you put into to -- next to nothing. So why should the gaming industry be held to a higher standard than any other industry outside the Entertainment industry who themselves are only recently (in terms of years in business) just started to rectify their own stero-typing issues and that is only because someone decided to provide a solution along with the complaint.

 

[robus]

[MENTION=6907519]DeJoker[/MENTION], obviously @pemerton was referring to this very thoughtful post from @Imaro:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ing-the-ball&p=7258673&viewfull=1#post7258673

Please do try to keep up...

 

[Alexemplar]

Forgotten Realms is a bland kitchen-sink setting with a whole bunch of racial and cultural clichés in it. Northern barbarians anyone? They are less advanced than the Chultans 'because Vikings', and Barbarians are a Int stat dump raging murder hobos 'because Vikings'.

I wonder how sensitive Norwegians are about that?

Sure. Let's ask those Americans of Norwegian heritage who have faced discrimination due to being associated with raging Vikings. And discuss media's refusal to portray medieval Norwegians as anything more than backwards savages incapable of handling culture. And discuss how pre-Christian Norwegian religion is played up as scary, unholy, and the stuff of horror movies. And discuss how medieval Norway is associated with images of disease, primitive savages, and the like. And also discuss how these portrayals of Norwegians were used to enslave them for centuries and then discriminate against them for another century and how we're still dealing with those consequences and perception in all aspects of media today.

Although even if we were interested in the opinions of people of Norwegian heritage, there would be many here who would argue that we shouldn't ask them because who are they to tell us how they feel about that kind of stuff?

There are some points in the article worthy of note, but it is an over-reaction that takes no account of the fact that FR was not created by WotC, and they cannot change it lock, stock and barrel from previous incarnations...
The difference is, I wasn't adapting an established and lazy IP like FR - I had an empty palette to start with.

We have seen what WotC do when they do have carte blanche, and that is well reflected in the rule books.

Making such significant criticisms of this one adventure is unfair.

Except WotC can and has made sweeping changes where this stuff is concerned. Mezro of Chult and Lapaliiya were destroyed by WOTC in 4e along with a many other places. WotC also brought many of those other places back in 5e, but Mezro and Lapaliiya were not among them.

Using FR was a decision made entirely independent of any thoughts as to the welcome progressive material seen in the main rules books, and I don't think the WotC team will be happy being called racists, which is what this article does.

I really don't think they are...

Neither does the article. It mentions they dropped the ball and made a particular black blogger feel unwelcome via some lazy design by not addressing past elements of fantasy- elements that are indeed rooted in racism and racially coded ideas. It didn't call the folks behind ToA racist.

That said, it would be interesting to have an advanced Black culture in a D&D game world. I myself have homebrewed a Black race who overthrew Aberrations who ruled them in the distant past, and became great city builders, miners and craftspeople whose work rivals the Dwarves and Elves.


If, a few years down the line we don't see something Black-based where the fantasy race involved isn't every bit as powerful and interesting as the 'eurocentric' racial clichés on the Sword Coast etc. then perhaps we should be asking why not.

Is it unfair to ask why it hasn't been the case in previous decades? I get the feeling that if this article had been written in 1987 or 1997 or 2007 instead of 2017, a lot of the arguments brought to defend it would be the same.

Although I'm not really holding my breath for a D&D style African Adventures expansion any time soon for various reasons.

 

[DeJoker]

Keep up ?? Someone turns off the lights and then tells me to now find the object they just tossed into the pitch dark room in a room full of all kinds of objects and you expected me to find and bring back that object without any more description than it was small enough for them to toss it into the room. That is not keeping up that is being futuristically freaky, I think you as over expectant as those writers of that article were and condescendingly rude too boot. Further yours is just a guess as well because unless you are that person yours is only but a guess.

@DeJoker, obviously @pemerton was referring to this very thoughtful post from @Imaro:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ing-the-ball&p=7258673&viewfull=1#post7258673

Please do try to keep up...

 

[Imaro]

Keep up ?? Someone turns off the lights and then tells me to now find the object they just tossed into the pitch dark room in a room full of all kinds of objects and you expected me to find and bring back that object without any more description than it was small enough for them to toss it into the room. That is not keeping up that is being futuristically freaky, I think you as over expectant as those writers of that article were and condescendingly rude too boot. Further yours is just a guess as well because unless you are that person yours is only but a guess.

This post is just lazy complaining... expecting a clear reference is over expectant on your part you should quit being lazy and do something to figure out which post was being referred to...

 

[DeJoker]

This post is just lazy complaining... expecting a clear reference is over expectant on your part you should quit being lazy and do something to figure out which post was being referred to...

lol -- that was actually overly humorous -- let us see the facts of the situation -- I was told it was about 5 posts back -- I went about 5 posts back and found the post by the denoted author that seemed that it might be even relevant -- while actual being lazy would have meant I had done nothing but lodge the complaint without any action at all -- I mean I did not have to count back nor is it my fault that the individual miss guessed WHICH of course is assuming again your guess is even correct which it may or may not be -- no word on that one yet -- now I could have been, as you claim, lazy and just complained about it and left it at that. So you really need to get a better handle on what IS lazy and what is not. Again your expectations are as seemingly unrealistic as the authors of that article -- thus making your post asinine in nature and thus as equally as rude and disrespectful as your previous one.

P.S. I composed my following message offline prior to posting this one -- just in case you feel this ignorant comment of yours had prompted me to post the following one.