Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
The Shining South is back (if a bit soggy) in 5e. Apparently it went for a visit to Abeir also.
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D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?
- Thread starter Evenglare
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Honestly, I would consider it significantly worse than inaction, because it would mean that they first realized that there may be a problem, decided they should do something about it and then deliberately chose an inadequate solution for the sake of CYA. I think they made a good faith effort with the staff they have and a sincere effort even if it falls short to me ranks well above cynical tokenism.
Also, the revelations since the start of this discussion regarding the other parts of FR that also have black cultures seems to render the original article and its premise largely moot. It's clear now that there was a lack of research by the article's author into the full scope of the FR setting, which makes me question her motives. At this point, I have to agree it was controversy for the sake of clickbait, which is not something that helps any community.
Tokenism? It's a hot-button topic in the black community.
My POV: the token hire at least has the opportunity to effect change from within. To be a trailblazer. We probably wouldn't have Denzel Washington getting that Oscar a few years ago without all those early black actors demeaning themselves on film. People forget how well those actors were paid in the Great Depression.
Civil rights laws aim at leveling the playing field and open doors previously closed. But only on the job actions actually change opinions.
So, to me, the person hired as a CYA minority hire is in position to- by his/her actions- open the door just a bit more. Or, if things go badly, virtually close it for a generation or more.
My POV: the token hire at least has the opportunity to effect change from within. To be a trailblazer. We probably wouldn't have Denzel Washington getting that Oscar a few years ago without all those early black actors demeaning themselves on film. People forget how well those actors were paid in the Great Depression.
Civil rights laws aim at leveling the playing field and open doors previously closed. But only on the job actions actually change opinions.
So, to me, the person hired as a CYA minority hire is in position to- by his/her actions- open the door just a bit more. Or, if things go badly, virtually close it for a generation or more.
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I think references to content in earlier editions is moot. This is the edition where WotC claimed they were making a fresh start to make it more appealing to communities that were not well served previously. It’s good business sense as the more appealing it becomes the bigger the potential audience is. And now that they’ve put all their eggs in the Forgotten Realms they should be making doubly sure that it jettisons as much baggage as possible.
The colonial nature of Chult’s recent history and the air-dropping in of foreign adventurers seems quite ham-fisted after this discussion.
The colonial nature of Chult’s recent history and the air-dropping in of foreign adventurers seems quite ham-fisted after this discussion.
I think we're on slightly different topics even though they intersect. I'm not against opening doors, but I'm also focusing on the specific case raised earlier regarding WOTC and TOA. Disregarding the article's inaccuracies regarding the setting, let's say WOTC published something that fell short of the goal of introducing a black civilization to FR, or made decisions that changed the setting in a way that had the same result. There are a couple of questions that logically follow:
1. Is there any indication that the intent behind the changes had to do with anything other than game reasons?
2. If the problem is that not enough research into sub-Saharan cultures was done, what would have been the best way to fix that?
In the first case, I think that the intent was actually to treat the setting and civilization with respect. To the extent that they fell short, it seems to be less relevant than it initially seemed from the article given the other black civilizations in FR previously mentioned as addressing the shortcomings noted with Chult.
In the second case, it seems like for the purposes of TOA they wanted a jungle adventure with plenty of hazards, old ruins, undead and dinosaurs. With the previous game history of Chult, they improved the situation of the civilization there, but incrementally. Given what we know, it seems like the real way to address the expresses wishes would have been to do a different adventure set in one of the other black civilizations, or to release a new FR sourcebook that expands further on those as they did with the Sword Coast.
Setting all that aside for the purposes of this thought experiment, it's fair to assume they already have an expert on FR and the game history of Chult on staff, so the next suggestion was to hire a person of color. This is where I diverged from the article strongly, not because I disagree with hiring people of any skin color but because there is no reason to believe someone with a different skin color would have actually made any real difference in the outcome. Had they hired an expert in sub-Saharan African cultures, who may or may not happen to have a darker skin tone, then it may have indeed made Chult more interesting.
What I got from your earlier post was the statement that they should have hired someone with a different skin color, even if that made no difference, because it would at least give them a different viewpoint (which I don't see as necessarily true, again because I tend to focus on the individual rather than group identities) and might by chance have been someone who also knew more about sub-Saharan African history. That's the part that I just don't understand logically. If they realized that their own best effort with their staff would fall short, then the only reason to hire someone who may or may not be helpful is effectively a roll of the dice and, as you pointed out, for scapegoat/CYA reasons. That to me seems worse than just putting in your best effort and doing your own research.
Alternately, If they did know that their own effort should fall short, then to me tokenism also makes no sense - instead search for someone who is the best expert in sub-Saharan Africa who is available as a consultant and pick their brains for a while and have them review the setting. That person may be black or may be of another skin color but the likelihood of improving the setting is much greater than if expertise is secondary to skin color.
In a more general sense, when WOTC has new positions of any kind, their hiring should be color-blind and I think that they would benefit if their staff has people from a variety of backgrounds and experiences. I just don't see that we have any reason to believe that hiring more staff for this particular project based on skin color alone would have made any realistic difference.
1. Is there any indication that the intent behind the changes had to do with anything other than game reasons?
2. If the problem is that not enough research into sub-Saharan cultures was done, what would have been the best way to fix that?
In the first case, I think that the intent was actually to treat the setting and civilization with respect. To the extent that they fell short, it seems to be less relevant than it initially seemed from the article given the other black civilizations in FR previously mentioned as addressing the shortcomings noted with Chult.
In the second case, it seems like for the purposes of TOA they wanted a jungle adventure with plenty of hazards, old ruins, undead and dinosaurs. With the previous game history of Chult, they improved the situation of the civilization there, but incrementally. Given what we know, it seems like the real way to address the expresses wishes would have been to do a different adventure set in one of the other black civilizations, or to release a new FR sourcebook that expands further on those as they did with the Sword Coast.
Setting all that aside for the purposes of this thought experiment, it's fair to assume they already have an expert on FR and the game history of Chult on staff, so the next suggestion was to hire a person of color. This is where I diverged from the article strongly, not because I disagree with hiring people of any skin color but because there is no reason to believe someone with a different skin color would have actually made any real difference in the outcome. Had they hired an expert in sub-Saharan African cultures, who may or may not happen to have a darker skin tone, then it may have indeed made Chult more interesting.
What I got from your earlier post was the statement that they should have hired someone with a different skin color, even if that made no difference, because it would at least give them a different viewpoint (which I don't see as necessarily true, again because I tend to focus on the individual rather than group identities) and might by chance have been someone who also knew more about sub-Saharan African history. That's the part that I just don't understand logically. If they realized that their own best effort with their staff would fall short, then the only reason to hire someone who may or may not be helpful is effectively a roll of the dice and, as you pointed out, for scapegoat/CYA reasons. That to me seems worse than just putting in your best effort and doing your own research.
Alternately, If they did know that their own effort should fall short, then to me tokenism also makes no sense - instead search for someone who is the best expert in sub-Saharan Africa who is available as a consultant and pick their brains for a while and have them review the setting. That person may be black or may be of another skin color but the likelihood of improving the setting is much greater than if expertise is secondary to skin color.
In a more general sense, when WOTC has new positions of any kind, their hiring should be color-blind and I think that they would benefit if their staff has people from a variety of backgrounds and experiences. I just don't see that we have any reason to believe that hiring more staff for this particular project based on skin color alone would have made any realistic difference.
JacktheRabbit
Explorer
Obviously you missed the sarcasm in my post. Reminds me years ago of a guy in one of my gaming groups. He was black, his character was a Paladin who was black, oh and he had a giant afro per his description. That was the extent of his background as a black character, skin color and kinky hair. Trying to tell me that if he worked for WOTC it would immediately remove any steroetypes, or more accurately genre habits, from appearing in print.
Yeah, I greatly doubt that.
No, I caught your sarcasm.
And if you read my subsequent posts, I absolutely did NOT say that the presence of a PoC would lead automatically banish stereotypes and lazy genre habits from print. Magical Negros don't exist IRL.
Besides, what stereotype do you think he was portraying there? Your details are sketchy, but it sounds like me or some of my relatives at different points in time.
Libramarian
Adventurer
I find it ironic that the author's primary criticism seems to be that Chult mashes various disparate African cultures together, but she also likes the asinine concept of "people of color". Talk about mashing disparate cultures together! I guess if they had had a Korean guy on the team they necessarily would have done a better job with the adventure.
I also find the hesitance to imitate click consonants to be pretentious and silly. That feels to me like it comes from a basically supremacist perspective. There's no need to walk on eggshells unless you actually do feel deep down that your race and culture are superior. It reminds me of how people act around other people's children.
I also find the hesitance to imitate click consonants to be pretentious and silly. That feels to me like it comes from a basically supremacist perspective. There's no need to walk on eggshells unless you actually do feel deep down that your race and culture are superior. It reminds me of how people act around other people's children.
I couldn't agree more. That's why (some, eveny many) people of colour get upset by lazy (and lazily racist) depictions of non-European peoples and cultures. Because they find that sort of thing doesn't help them to relax and have fun.
Why is it "politics" for people to want WotC to publish stuff that lets them relax and have fun?
Stereotypes drawn from pulp fiction aren't knowledge. That's (part of) the point!
There is nothing about that post that is exclusive to America. (Said by someone sitting here in Melbourne, Australia.)
Imaro
Legend
Where exactly are they "featured" in the PHB?
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