Throwing characters

[Dalamar]

Built for Throwing doesn't require any adjustments as far as I can see.

A new version of Expert Thrower might end up looking like this:

Expert Thrower
You are experienced in throwing others.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You don't treat a pinned opponent as an inapproriately sized weapon.
If you use a pinned opponent as an improvised ranged weapon, you can throw the opponent a maximum of five range increments, as normal for thrown weapons.
Normal: A pinned opponent is treated as an inapproriately sized weapon, and can be thrown a maximum of two range increments when used as an improvised ranged weapon.
Special: A fighter may select Expert Thrower as one of their bonus feats.
A monk may select Expert Thrower as a bonus feat at 2nd level if they have Improved Grapple, even if they don't meet the other prerequisites.


I just realised that this precludes throwing people around at early levels since a Pin only lasts one round (so you can't Pin and Throw before you have multiple attacks).
Also, should there be a note saying that a pinned opponent counts as a special monk weapon so they can be used in a Flurry?

 

[Patlin]

I have a suggestion for a "Throwing People" mechanic.

Use Opponent as a Weapon: You may treat a pinned opponent that you are grappling as an improvised weapon. In addition to the improvised weapon penalty (-4), a pinned opponent always counts as an 'inappropriately sized weapon' (-2, for a total of -6).

If used as an improvised ranged weapon, the opponent has a range increment equal to the thrower's reach, with a maximum of two range increments. If the attack misses, then the thrown character has managed to prevent his/her thrower from successfully completing the throw and is still grappled and pinned in the thrower's square. The character may be thrown at an empty square. An empty square has an AC of 5 (10 base, -5 for no dex), modified for range.

A character used as an improvised weapon takes an equal amount of damage as they deal. If a thrown character is thrown into an empty square, that character takes damage as if they had dealt damage. If thrown into an empty square, the character may make a Tumble check DC 15. If successful, they take no damage from the throw and land nimbly on their feet.

Very well written. I would suggest a slight modification. After pinning an opponent, I would require an additional opposed graple check at a -5 penalty in order to use the opponent as a weapon. This opposed grapple check would be considered part of the attack and not a seperate action.

For example, suppose the attacker has 3 attacks and has started the round grappling an opponent. Using the full attack action, with the first attack the attacker manages to pin his target. With the second, let's suppose the target beats the attacker on the grapple check, preventing himself from being used as a weapon for that attack. For the third, the attacker succeeds and is able to use the target as a weapon (including as a thrown weapon.)

With this sort of mechanic, I don't think a feat would even be necessary, it could just be an alternate combat technique.

 

[Patlin]

Built for Throwing doesn't require any adjustments as far as I can see.

A new version of Expert Thrower might end up looking like this:

Expert Thrower
You are experienced in throwing others.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You don't treat a pinned opponent as an inapproriately sized weapon.
If you use a pinned opponent as an improvised ranged weapon, you can throw the opponent a maximum of five range increments, as normal for thrown weapons.
Normal: A pinned opponent is treated as an inapproriately sized weapon, and can be thrown a maximum of two range increments when used as an improvised ranged weapon.
Special: A fighter may select Expert Thrower as one of their bonus feats.
A monk may select Expert Thrower as a bonus feat at 2nd level if they have Improved Grapple, even if they don't meet the other prerequisites.


I just realised that this precludes throwing people around at early levels since a Pin only lasts one round (so you can't Pin and Throw before you have multiple attacks).
Also, should there be a note saying that a pinned opponent counts as a special monk weapon so they can be used in a Flurry?

...though of course amplifying the technique with a feat would be reasonable.

Questions:

How does far shot interact with all of this? My initial impression is that far shot would double the range increment, and that that should be the primary route to go to throw people farther.

Also, I have some concerns about the comparative sizes of attacker and target. Perhaps this maneuver should normally be limited to opponents of your size or smaller, and the feat could do the following:

Expert Thrower
You are incredibly powerfull in your ability to throw other creatures.
Benefit: You may throw an opponent of up to one size category larger than yourself, and you may throw creatures smaller than you further than normal. For each size category smaller than you, you can throw a creature an additional range increment, to a maximum of 5 range increments.
Normal: You can only throw creatures of your own size or lower, and you can only throw them to a maximum of 2 range increments.

I don't think anything as awkward as another creature should be usable as a special monk weapon.

This wole subject is causing we to think of the Ballhog in Bored of the Rings... and, of course, his weapon.

 

[IcyCool]

I really like Patlin's modifier to Expert Thrower.

 

[Dalamar]

It didn't even cross my mind to put an explicit limit on the living weapon maneuver when, according to the rules (PHB glossary, IIRC), a two-handed weapon is an object of the character's size. Following that logic, a creature or object larger than the character would be too big to wield as a weapon (and a cat is a light weapon for a human, and rats are too small to be used as weapons).

But I just took a deeper look at that, and I realised that it is pretty darn penalized for a medium creature. To throw somebody 10ft (the max distance) from you, you take a -10 penalty (-4 improvised, -2 inapproriately sized, -4 two range increments) to your attack and can use, at most, your second-highest attack (since the duration of a Pin is 1 round, which means it ends just before your turn on the next round). You also need a good Str (to be able to actually win the grapple checks) and a good Dex (to be able to hit something with all those penalties).
It starts to seem like a really undesirable action. And yes, I realise that the version I had had all these flaws too. It just seems like you'd never use this unless you were fighting something way below your level in CR (especially true for monks with their lowered attack bonus), in which case you'd probably still be better off just taking a normal full attack instead of using at least three attacks (initiate grapple, pin, throw) to throw somebody.

How can we make Throw an equally desirable option as Sunder, Trip, Bullrush and Disarm are? Are we approaching this all wrong, shouldn't throwing be based on Bull Rush (moving somebody), its closest equivalent?

How about:

Throw
Prereq: Str 13, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Benefit: When performing a Bull Rush, you don't have to move with your target to move them more than 5ft.

 

[orsal]

It didn't even cross my mind to put an explicit limit on the living weapon maneuver when, according to the rules (PHB glossary, IIRC), a two-handed weapon is an object of the character's size. Following that logic, a creature or object larger than the character would be too big to wield as a weapon (and a cat is a light weapon for a human, and rats are too small to be used as weapons).

Don't confuse a creature's size as a creature with its size as a weapon. From the SRD

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object.

Note, for example, that medium-sized two-handed weapons range in weight from 4-15 lb, rather less than a medium-sized creature. Granted, direct comparisons are awkward, given that most weapons are more one-dimensional than humanoids are, but weight is the most relevant measure to wieldability as a weapon.

 

[Knight Otu]

Orsal, you are referring to the exact same rule as Dalamar. It continues to say that

Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Which is what he is referring to. Personally, I have a feeling that this might put weapons to be a size category too large, but that's not quite the topic.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

A lot of work went into this, and two versions of the action got 2 votes each. Dalamar raised a valid point in his last post: attempting to throw a character with either version of the rules is not a very effective use of combat time. It's funny, because the first thing I thought of when I read this for the second time was "Why not just make this like bull rush without a charge?" and it took 47 posts for somebody to make that connection.

I think this is an fun concept, and while it may not have much practical use, it certainly makes for interesting combat. For that reason, I'd be opposed to making it a feat because any feat which made it an effective use of combat would defy all sorts of physics and probably seem supernatural, so who would spend a feat to receive a "realistic" improvement to the pretty crappy Throw action?

I think Dalamar was on the right track with his bull rush suggestion. Or, either of the other versions only needs 1 vote to pass. If anybody has any comments...? Or should we just let this fade into nothingness.

 

[Patlin]

Dalamar, is this still something you are interested in?

I'm sure if we all keep tinkering with it, we'll eventually get something we're happy with.